Slate mag's take on CM

Ummmmm....you misundertstand. I don't think these people are necessarily getting it "wrong" at all.

He behaves a little aggressively with dogs. He acts like a bully--he is not being "calm and assertive," he is giving major social climber, alpha-wannabe cues. And he says some things that are good advice. Then people take his behavior and not what he says with his mouth. Monkey-see, monkey-do. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

If I talked a lot about not speeding, and gave lots of good information about safe driving, but had a lead foot and drove on television in a slightly dangerous, somewhat mesmerizing, definitely entertaining way, what do you think the takeaway would be? And whose fault would it be?

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I see leash corrections or Cesars's "bite" as he calls it in the same light.
Something ironic for the fans of "real" behaviorists. A New Yorker article quoted Patricia McConnell when describing how Cesar interacts with dogs. The way she describes the problem of leash aggression is nearly identical to the way Cesar explains it. It's not a dog problem - it's a people problem.

I do see leash corrections as problematic and here's why.  Although I don't use them myself, I have seen Brian K. in action, and he has a lot of finesse.  His "pops" could be more accurately described as a "very light pop", just a "jingle" if you will.  But, the average pet owner invariably gets frustrated enough to pop the dog hard enough to cause laryngeal damage, which is seen in quite a few force-trained dogs.  At least, if ordinary folks try +R, they don't do much permanent damage if they do it wrong.

I have no doubt you are correct about the CM/McConnell similarity.  But, I submit that her methods might involve +R, or body-blocking and non-physical leadership techniques, so they are miles apart when it comes to implementing a behavioral plan for such dogs.

Touch certainly does not equate to beating.  But, hanging a dog, which he has done, is abuse, in my opinion.  But, if you can't get your way with persuasive techniques, I guess bullying will work.  Dragging a dog that is scared to death toward the object of her fear is abuse, not counterconditioning.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Touch certainly does not equate to beating.  But, hanging a dog, which he has done, is abuse, in my opinion. 

I believe the incident you speak of was when he was trying to rehabilitate the dog-aggressive pit-bull with his pack and the pit sudenly started fiercely attacking one of the dogs of his pack.  I'm curious what you think should have been done in that situation?  I guess you could say he shouldn't have put that dog in that position in the first place, but if an attack does happen all of a sudden, what should be done?

I do sometimes advocate euthanasia. Why? Because, in most cases of severe and escalating aggression, the owners cannot manage the dog appropriately to keep everyone safe. And, because for every truly dangerously aggressive dog that is kept alive, maybe somewhere in some overpacked shelter, a really good dog is being PTS. In the bigger picture, is it right to euth so many good dogs to save a few potential killers?

 
I do agree with you on this part, and in just that particular vein, people may view CM's apparent success with aggressive dogs as a way out of euthanasia. Yet, if the owners never change their bad habits, they will be back again with another out of control dog.
 
As for referring to you obliquely, that is a habit I get from work. We normally do not single a person out, just make a general announcement for everyone. It's not that I'm afraid to quote you and I may have had a problem with the idea, though I do not have a problem with you, that I know of. In fact, to answer Fisher about how a mistake is treated at work, it depends. I am the qualifier for the company. Without my master license, my boss has no company. So, it's hard for him to just get rid of me. It can be done but it's a big hassle and he'd rather put up with my fiddlin' ways and superior knowledge and experience. Don't that just stink for him. When I have a crew member make a mistake and someone else wants to blame them and run them down, I put a stop to that, though I don't use TSSST. I remind them that we can have this tatting circle later. What can we do right now to fix the problem? I need those plugs energized in an hour. So we come up with the solution and achieve the production I'm looking for. I don't tolerate in-fighting. I may have to move someone to another area and keep some people separated.
 
Since you don't mind being quoted, another person started this thread, without defending him, just expressing their thoughts. Then you launched a vitriolic tirade. If hollering at kids and dogs doesn't work, will it work with us? If I were a dog, I would probably be euthanized because I continue to think for myself and veer off when you least expect it. Then I made another post and Fisher called my post doody. That was not, IMHO, the response of a mature adult, but that is just my opinion. Now, I could repeat over and over what I have said before but we may just be going in circles and I'm probably wearing your patience to a frazzle.
 
And, on a silly note, now you see why I was raised with corporal punishment. I've got a skull like granite.
 

I will agree that you can't stop people from being stupid and they even have shows for that. And yes, people will misapply techniques, whether it is postive correction or positive reinforcement. And there are a number of trainers out there, of which CM doesn't proclaim to be on his show, though he may train his dogs, as anyone would. And they may all have different approaches while operating from some central beliefs, such as most dog problems are actually human problems. Nor do I do everything I see CM do. And if you consider me thick-headed, which is your right, then how different am I from the masses out there engaging in a collective tsssst?

As an aside, your posts do make me think, so I could never call your post a load of doody, whether I agree with all your points, or not.

I really wish we could discuss dog training without delving into the raising of human children. It's not that there aren't parallels to be drawn, but really, is there any faster way to get into a heated, emotional discussion that has nothing to do with the topic at hand?
 
Anyway, I heard Emily Yoffe on NPR today as their Here & Now program regularly touches on the latest Slate story. She didn't say that much that wasn't already in the article - although I thought the characterization of Sasha as a "devil dog" was telling - but she did say that when she started using what she called Cesar's technique to walk her dog, which was stopping repositioning, leash pops and SSSTTTT every time Sasha pulled, it took her 2 weeks to have a dog that did not pull on the leash. I think everyone who has successfully trained a dog to loose leash walking would recognize this as simple "make like a tree" method with the unnecessary additions of leash popping and hissing. And 2 weeks is pretty average, far from "miraculous," for this training method.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

What I'd love to see is a similar show that had a team of trainers and behaviorists with different methods and specialties and for each individual dog and its problem

Have you ever seen "Barking Mad" on BBC? They do a show like that! They have several behaviorists who specialize in dogs, cats, ferrets, horses, birds and about any other pet. It's fun to see all the creative ways they use to alter or live with the behaviors. )Although their solution for a bull terrior who hated men in hats was a sign on the door that asked people to remove their hats before entering. I didn't think that really solved anything.)

I've mentioned Barking Mad on a CM thread before. I think it's an excellent show and dearly wish everyone were watching that instead of CM. Not only is it very diverse in the animals and problems treated and the methods used to treat them, but it also promotes thinking outside of the square and really getting to the bottom of the problem. I LOVE seeing what they create for bored animals.

I think everyone is missing the point of the Slate article. CM's methods worked. Not for the reasons he thinks they work, but they worked all the same. At least to some degree. The author actually said that she thought he was wrong, but still acknowledged that however wrong he might be, employing his methods helped her and her dog. I've seen this syndrome before on a show called "The Dog Listener". Same deal. Everything is a dominance problem. However, her methods worked as well, even if she didn't realise why they were working and was wrongly attributing it to a change in the pack hierarchy with the human at the top, now.

I find it very annoying that people are so horribly clueless about their dogs. Good dog owners would take what they like and what they believe will work from a number of sources, just like Ron does. They study their dog and figure out what they can do to communicate with it. Sadly, most people are not good dog owners. They don't understand their dogs and don't have the faintest idea how to behave towards them. They don't want to read books about dog behaviour, especially when the books point out all the idiotic things people do around dogs and why it's so stupid.

So, my feeling about CM and any other trainer that gets fixated on the dominance issue, is that they're annoying and piss me off, but a lot of people do have problems with a lack of strong leadership. And dogs really like strong leadership. My corgi goes nuts over people that boss her around. I figure, it might be wrong in many cases, but the methods used to correct it have the benefits and go a long way to strengthening the bonds people have with their dogs and helping them to realise that they can live in perfect harmony with them. Anything that encourages people to work with their dogs and show them strong leadership is a good thing, I think, even if the information being sent out is quite wrong.

To reiterate, CM doesn't know what he's on about, but he does teach strong leadership, and strong leadership helps dogs in all sorts of circumstances. The article suggests that CM's methods shouldn't have worked because the logic behind them is flawed, but they worked anyway. What's the big deal?

ORIGINAL: Trevell

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Touch certainly does not equate to beating.  But, hanging a dog, which he has done, is abuse, in my opinion. 

I believe the incident you speak of was when he was trying to rehabilitate the dog-aggressive pit-bull with his pack and the pit sudenly started fiercely attacking one of the dogs of his pack.  I'm curious what you think should have been done in that situation?  I guess you could say he shouldn't have put that dog in that position in the first place, but if an attack does happen all of a sudden, what should be done?

How about if the guy is stupid enough to put a dog-aggressive Pit in with a bunch of dogs, and has to hang it to get it outta there, that he doesn't put the stupidity on TV for public consumption???  That just feeds the fires of the crowd that thinks it's ok to act like that to assert "dominance", or the dimwits who think it's fine to just toss Pit Bulls (what part of bred to fight other dogs do they still not understand?) in to a group of dogs.  Running some of the CM episodes is akin to saying that if Julia Child accidentally poisoned six dinner guests with deathcap mushrooms, it's still OK to run the show because it gets people interested in haute cuisine. Gimme a break!
 [:@][sm=banghead002.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Trevell

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Touch certainly does not equate to beating.  But, hanging a dog, which he has done, is abuse, in my opinion. 

I believe the incident you speak of was when he was trying to rehabilitate the dog-aggressive pit-bull with his pack and the pit sudenly started fiercely attacking one of the dogs of his pack.  I'm curious what you think should have been done in that situation?  I guess you could say he shouldn't have put that dog in that position in the first place, but if an attack does happen all of a sudden, what should be done?

How about if the guy is stupid enough to put a dog-aggressive Pit in with a bunch of dogs, and has to hang it to get it outta there, that he doesn't put the stupidity on TV for public consumption???  That just feeds the fires of the crowd that thinks it's ok to act like that to assert "dominance", or the dimwits who think it's fine to just toss Pit Bulls (what part of bred to fight other dogs do they still not understand?) in to a group of dogs.  Running some of the CM episodes is akin to saying that if Julia Child accidentally poisoned six dinner guests with deathcap mushrooms, it's still OK to run the show because it gets people interested in haute cuisine. Gimme a break!
[:@][sm=banghead002.gif]

That's fine, and I respect your opinion about not showing that on TV, but it doesn't answer my question.  What would you have done in that situation?  I know in reality you wouldn't have put the dog in that particular situation, but lets say you have a dog aggressive pit-bull on a leash and there are other dogs around sniffing your pit-bull. The pit-bull starts viciously attacking one of the sniffing dogs.  What do you do in that moment?   I'm genuinely curious. 

leash pops and SSSTTTT every time Sasha pulled, it took her 2 weeks to have a dog that did not pull on the leash. I think everyone who has successfully trained a dog to loose leash walking would recognize this as simple "make like a tree" method with the unnecessary additions of leash popping and hissing. And 2 weeks is pretty average, far from "miraculous," for this training method.

 
The amount of time and using the same techniques consistently is certainly not new or miraculous but getting the owner involved in the training of her dog to be a better dog is miraculous. Even if you don't purposefully pop the leash, when the dog pulls or strays and you stop, the leash will "pop" itself or the collar will pull against the throat, whatever. The result is the same, the dog is stopped from doing what it wants to do and must now listen to and watch you. How else would you have trained the dog not to pull on a walk? Certainly, regardless of which method or equipment type, it will take some time for the dog to acclimate to what you want now. By that point in time, you are alpha, leader, whatever, because this walk will go as you decide, not how your dog decides.

ron, I normally don't have any problem with you, and really don't now, since I am a lover of debate (and brainstorming).  I hardly think that strong debate is a "vitriolic tirade".  But, you are entitled to your opinion.
go see the men joke thread - at least I helped you there

Trevell, you are 100% correct that I would not have put the dog into that position, so it really is a moot point.  However, to satisfy your desire to see if I would resort to being physical, the answer is that to save another dog, or human, life - yes, I would.  But, that does *not* in any way suggest that CM was justified in his actions.  It just shows how dumb he was in the first place to have created such a situation.
Because he doesn't seem to have the knowledge to have prevented such a simple situation, his mistakes will catch up with him one day if he isn't extremely lucky. 

actually agree with you. And yet the most irritating thing about the show is that it makes people do things like make strange noises at dogs and think that they know what they are doing. And in this translation process, all that aggressive stuff gets amplified and all the common sense stuff falls away as if by magic.

I work in a park with a pretty huge dog community. The CMification of certain (already ignorant and irresponsible) owners is really perturbing because they feel like it's OK to go up to other people's dogs and shake them down or alpha roll them or SSSSTTTT them. And that is aggressive behavior.

 
yup, that's my problem with CM in a nutshell. I really don't care what methods CM uses, or whether they work or not, or what wonderful things a few people have learned from the show. This nonsense is what 99% of CM's watchers take away from the show.  How can you defend him and his amazing ability to communicate important facts about dogs to his viewers when clearly he is failing to communicate anything but potentially dangerous nonsense?
 
I was at the dog training center a couple days ago, and one of the instructors was telling me they now routinely spend the entire first class carefully explaining what dominance really is, and why trying to dominate your dog as per CM was a really bad idea. They never had to do this before, they went straight into how to train your dog.
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Trevell, you are 100% correct that I would not have put the dog into that position, so it really is a moot point.  However, to satisfy your desire to see if I would resort to being physical, the answer is that to save another dog, or human, life - yes, I would.  But, that does *not* in any way suggest that CM was justified in his actions.  It just shows how dumb he was in the first place to have created such a situation.
Because he doesn't seem to have the knowledge to have prevented such a simple situation, his mistakes will catch up with him one day if he isn't extremely lucky. 

He created that situation to teach the dog that her behavior around other dogs was not acceptable.  That's what his clients wanted.  They felt bad that they were forced to confine their dog to the back yard and not able to take her on walks because of her dog aggresive behavior.   

Thanks for you reply, Anne. I was busy the last few days and haven't had much time for the forum. Thursday was my wife's birthday and yesterday turned out to be busy, as well.
 

I was at the dog training center a couple days ago, and one of the instructors was telling me they now routinely spend the entire first class carefully explaining what dominance really is, and why trying to dominate your dog as per CM was a really bad idea. They never had to do this before, they went straight into how to train your dog.

My colleagues and I have actually started doing this as well.  Hopefully, it will keep some of them from assuming that they need to use these techniques with dogs that don't even understand their commands yet. [sm=uhoh.gif]
Can you just imagine how many dogs there are that don't even know their names yet, whose owners are convinced that the dog isn't coming because it wants to dominate them???