OC, Clicker Training, Learning Theory

Ron, are you talking about the dog with the messed up front leg, and the owner had a Harley?

ron2

I must confess that I am still missing the theoretical bridge of not using clicker training on an SA dog. Shadow used to be SA. Over time, it became evident that he got treats when we were leaving and when we returned and that we always return, though the interval may vary. Time seemed to have healed that.

Shadow must be a special dog, because I have never seen a dog get over SA by just handing out treats.............Rumour had SA as a pup, he was crate trained and many other factors had to enter the training, but treats alone never did the job.

I guess, I have one very important question, and this is not to question your dog ownership, training or anything, so please don't take it there.......but, you have been Shadow's owner for almost two years, if I remember correctly......what is it( other than tricks) that you still have to teach this dog with a clicker?

Are we talking about not using clicker training with an SA dog, ever for anything, or just it not being useful to solving the SA in an of itself? Because I agree with the latter but not the former. SA is a multifaceted problem that takes several different approaches all at once to deal with (counter-conditioning, desensitization, management, sometimes pharmaceuticals, confidence-building). But I see no quality of an SA dog that would contraindicate it from being taught "sit" or "heel" with a clicker.

No, at least I am not talking about not using clicker training with an SA dog.  The whole idea in managing an SA dog is to reduce the stress of a particular situation and the resulting anxiety giving the dog enough time to trust that the situation (being alone for example) will end and the dog can count on an ending.  When training my foster hound, the dog had a short attention span and also exhibited anxiety when a treat was withheld because the dog did not offer the correct behavior.  The fact is the motivation of getting the reward caused anxiety in the dog, which no one warned me about.  This was unexpected on my part and I could not control the anxiety at the time.  A modified version of rewarding all the time but with different value assignments seemed to reduce the anxiety significantly.  My goal was to eliminate all triggers for anxiety so I can work on trust. 

I think the function that shows if and when a post was edited, that we lost when this board changed ,needs to be brought back....JMO.

When I began to cross Conrad over to the clicker, I knew I'd have to make it easy and low-stress for him. Our sessions were very short, I rewarded for pretty much any movement or behavior whatsoever, and I helped him be successful. This meant that initially he wasn't really learning any new discreet behaviors. He was just learning a new way of learning. Eventually he was able to see what was really going on--that he could control the training himself through his own actions and behaviors, and I saw a marked increase in his confidence after that lightbulb went on.

But a clicker alone will never be able to "cure" him of his SA. For the first two years after we got things at least somewhat under control, he was still not able to take food or toys when we were not around. We could leave him with the most awesome treat ever in his crate and it would still be there upon our return (at which point he'd scarf it down immediately).

snownose

I think the function that shows if and when a post was edited, that we lost when this board changed ,needs to be brought back....JMO.

Please use the "Give us Feedback" feature, in the top right corner to suggest that!  

houndlove

But a clicker alone will never be able to "cure" him of his SA. For the first two years after we got things at least somewhat under control, he was still not able to take food or toys when we were not around. We could leave him with the most awesome treat ever in his crate and it would still be there upon our return (at which point he'd scarf it down immediately).

That is exactly what Rumour would do.....food never even touched this problem....I would really be interested in what Ron did to make the "Magic Treat" work......because, a dog with severe SA has no interest in food.

Ixas_girl

snownose

I think the function that shows if and when a post was edited, that we lost when this board changed ,needs to be brought back....JMO.

 

Please use the "Give us Feedback" feature, in the top right corner to suggest that!  

I was able to know when the message is being edited because when you hit the "quote button", you get all these error messages.

houndlove

When I began to cross Conrad over to the clicker, I knew I'd have to make it easy and low-stress for him. Our sessions were very short, I rewarded for pretty much any movement or behavior whatsoever, and I helped him be successful. This meant that initially he wasn't really learning any new discreet behaviors. He was just learning a new way of learning. Eventually he was able to see what was really going on--that he could control the training himself through his own actions and behaviors, and I saw a marked increase in his confidence after that lightbulb went on.

But a clicker alone will never be able to "cure" him of his SA. For the first two years after we got things at least somewhat under control, he was still not able to take food or toys when we were not around. We could leave him with the most awesome treat ever in his crate and it would still be there upon our return (at which point he'd scarf it down immediately).

Very close to my protocal.  I wish I would have been told about this upfront instead of all that positive "no harm can be done" promotions.  When I brought up that there is -p or -r, whichever, I was ignored.  Deprivation, satiation...I was bombarded with criticism.  This is important for us to know because we are each dealing with a unique dog.  When newbies come in and ask for help, maybe we should be asking the right questions to them and not just inquire about exercise level or advise NILIF or Clicker Training.  We may be doing them harm.  I am absolutely flaberghasted that the dog professionals on this board ignored these facts. 

 That seems to be your own axe to grind, DPU. I do my own research and think for myself before starting anything new with my dogs, I don't care how fabulous someone says it is. If you google "crossover dog" you get instructions much like what is discussed above. If you read books and articles it says the same thing. I don't think it's a matter of permanent harm you can do to the dog, but not handling a crossover dog with a naturally anxious personality right initially will make things slow going and certainly won't help matters with the anxiety, though I doubt they'd make them worse. A dog who is that anxious and stressed will react that way to any training situation, whether you are using +r or -p or +p, until he can see that he can be in control of what happens. I mean, tell me how -p (which is commonly used in rewards-based training) would be less stressful. You're withholding something the dog wants. With +p and -r, you're purposefully introducing in to the dog's environment something the dog does not like--that can definitely create stress.

No method is magical and 100% idiot-proof. At least with a rewards-based method when you do screw up (and it's not like I've never screwed up, but my screw-ups are on me and no one else) it might set you training back, it might make things slower than they could be, it might cause your dog some mild stress, but it probably will not create a biting, fear-aggressive dog like you sometimes see happen with misapplied and poorly executed punishment/correction methods.  

But I've never seen anyone say that you can't use rewards-based methods wrong and get a result other than what you wanted. People use them wrong all the time and then decide that they don't work and we've all spent a lot of time arguing with those folks. Well, no method works if you don't prepare yourself, do your research, read your dog well, and execute it properly. 

Sorry Houndlove, I did it right by not attempting to do this on my own.  I read up and visited sites, there was no mention.  I went to a formal Clicker Training class and what I was talking about seem to be news to the instructor who was a behaviorist, a retired one.  I have no axe to grind I just want to stress that the TRUTH is very important to know.  You may characterize the result as mild stress but I experienced a full panic in my foster hound.  Each dog reacts differently and I just need to know these qualifications in advance.  Too late now. 

Sorry for the delay. It's been a long day.

I didn't implement a specific plan. I would bribe Shadow to go outside. We would go and he would suffer SA. Is it SA when the dog whines and pines for your company, so loud that neighbors can hear it and think it's a child crying? Can anyone here dispute that Sibes tend to have SA? We go away and come back, not always the same interval. When we got back, he would eat and, if I had something, he would get a treat. Eventually, the problem went away. I think, at least partially, because we didn't make a big deal about it.

But to this day, Shadow will not eat a full portion, which for him is only about a cup to a cup and a half, unless he is in my presence. He'll eat some now and then around DW. He will nibble if we are gone all day. But only a "full" meal in my presence. Is that also a sign of SA? And the SA happened before I got into the clicker. That is my "magic." With my magical dog. Granted, there may not be a procedure for using a clicker to solve SA, but I am still going to use it in place of corrections. I guess, aside from bribes and treats, I worked through the SA by not giving it attention, so to speak. Lack of any continuous reward, for some time. The behavior extinguishes as it is not rewarding. Or, I'm just  cold and heartless?

Or Shadow didn't have SA as you might define it, but it was some separation anxiety, I suppose, that any dog might go through. And he might have held onto that behavior if his previous owner caved into his fears. I didn't.

I still use the clicker and will do so until I have jackpotted everything that I want in a variety of circumstances, a number of times, if possible. Though I get LLW and heel in Petsmart because I jackpotted there, once. I was jackpotting heel in the Petco. We were leaving and a kid coming in raised his hand over Shadow's head. Rather than growl or snap, Shadow averted out of the way and I gave him a monstrous jackopt, the rest of a quarter pound of chicken. I aim to make him as bomb-proof as possible. Things working against me are breed traits. Tendency to pull like a freight train, shyness of strangers, excitability, tendency to play hard, primarily because he doesn't realize his strength and speed. I swear, he is one of the fastest dogs I have seen, except for maybe a greyhound during competition. Most of the behaviors I have clicked, I had already established through standard lure/reward. I sharpened them with the clicker. As well as some free-shaping, which I would like to do more of.

And, yes, DPU, I was talking about Holly, the dog that rode the sidecar on the Harley.

As for SA, I might not use the clicker in the future, with another dog. But I won't reward the anxious behavior. But I will reward the calm behavior. And sometimes, click and reward the calm behavior, especially if followed calming signals, which give me an indication of what's going on. It is my goal to make the behavior I want so much more rewarding that some self-rewarding behavior that could be detrimental. In so doing, the unrewarded or lesser rewarded behavior will tend to diminish. It is merely upon me to make my way more rewarding than anything else in existence. But yes, there are somethings that don't specifically require a clicker to work effectively. Though it can take time. I taught Shadow mushing commands with nothing more than the command, good boy, and sometimes a tug in the right direction on the harness. For 2 years. If I had used the clicker, I probably would have had it in a month or two.

So, we've agreed that there can be some satiation and deprivation in training, although I think it is regardless of training style. And, we've agreed that you don't start a currently emaciated dog on treat training immediately. And that you can treat-train such a dog later. And that clicker training does have it's uses. And that the use of a clicker, which is a precise tool for precisely marking a completed specific behavior, might not be applicable in a state of mind issue such as SA. We've learned that you are not against clicker training and have used it.

So, where does that leave us? Is it that I offer advise to newbies that is oriented toward +R? Well, that's going to keep on happening as long as I have posting privileges. And it is not out of disrespect for you or Snownose that I do so. It is always, in such cases, about the dog. I think the strongest thing you've ever advocated was a special training collar. Again, I will post what I post, regardless of political affiliations, perceived or real, out of no desire to "fight the fight and convert the great unwashed throngs" but to help a dog and the humans who are with them, based on what I know and think. I can be characterized or my points characterized but it will not stop me from posting if I think I can help.

Aside from all this, I was wondering how your meeting went? Or did you start a different thread for that?

Bury the hatchet????  We are just discussing things.  No more than that.

No one can write the contents of your posts but you.  I believe in these past few weeks your views have been influenced or at least gave you something to think about.  And I am sure it will be reflected in your future postings.  I will look for that integrity.

With respect to SA, I am sure Shadow had/has a mild SA condition.  A lot of my foster come with that after living for a while in a shelter cubbyhole.  As I stated, please look up what true SA is so you can get an understanding the dog's state of mind the dog and what the dog goes through.  The panic, uncontrolled behavior and the destruction will leave you literally numb....it puts you into shock. 

As for a home visit for Molson, the family-two women said Molson was aloof and they felt no bond.  Well at least I got a pop and some apple strudle out of it.  I brought Petro, so we had a nice outing on a very nice day.

DPU

With respect to SA, I am sure Shadow had/has a mild SA condition.  A lot of my foster come with that after living for a while in a shelter cubbyhole.  As I stated, please look up what true SA is so you can get an understanding the dog's state of mind the dog and what the dog goes through.  The panic, uncontrolled behavior and the destruction will leave you literally numb....it puts you into shock. 

Totally agree, the stuff that Rumour destroyed was unbelievable, he was confined to a bathroom as a little one, and he chewed up everything that he could get a hold of.....it was wild, so, crate training was the first step........Ron, I hate to say it, crying for an owner or handler is a mild version, unless you see mega destructive behavior that leaves one speechless,and severe panic, you haven't seen SA.

I'm going to agree with Snownose and DPU on the SA issue here. Most dogs are not happy about being left alone, and many will nuisance bark or destroy a pillow but that's not clinical SA. What an SA dog can and does do when left alone, even for 5 minutes, is shocking. Even after all these years of the problem being managed, Conrad recently had a setback caused by us going out of town for the weekend and leaving him in the care of a friend to house and dogsit. The latch on Conrad's crate is a little tricky and he busted out when she went to work one day (the fact that he even tried the door I think is a testament to his already experiencing a setback due to us being gone) and I now have scratches on the wall caused by his claws as he over and over tried to claw his way up to the window (it's about 5 feet up--the room he was in is our den in our finished basement) in order to try to get out. He ripped the blinds off the other window, and totally murderized his bed.  And when I got home and saw what he'd done, I was actually relieved. Because while this was a setback, it was not a complete regression. Had he had a complete regression the room would be a pile of rubble. The carpet would be torn up, the TV and stereo would have been thrown off their shelves, the futon would be torn up, everything would be thrown off every flat surface, and *shudder* all my husbands instruments are in that room too and those would be reduced to kindling. So the fact that he only tried to claw his way up a wall to get out a window actually signalled pretty good progress from his original state. Interestingly, he's never vocalized while experiencing an anxiety attack. He's totally silent aside from whining. That was one thing we never had to worry about.

When we were going through our initial battle with Conrad's SA I started to experience panic attacks and depression myself. It seemed so insurmountable and progress with it was so slow, it really his a pretty terrible thing to have to deal with. Especially because SA dogs are often so good and well-behaved when you are there. It seems like a total Jekyll and Hyde situation and it's just heartbreaking.