OC, Clicker Training, Learning Theory

Mein Gott, mein Gott.......should I include the animals I have boarded before, which includes a Rottie, a Rottie mix, an Australian Terrier, and a few Labs,......they board and are not integrated into my pack, can't you see the difference, we are talking making a pack work with several powerful breeds......darn, I almost forgot the rescues I brought in that were adopted out........

Talk about power of assumption.......

 
Well, I only speak English, sorry. I don't know what your first words were, and I don't feel much like finding a translator, so I'm hoping it was nothing important. As fo the power of assumption, I don't assume anything about others, because assumptions often turn out wrong.
 
You talked about having three dogs that weighed more than my 14. I talked about the 3 large, very powerful breeds (Giant Schnauzer, working lined, schutzhund trained, St. Bernard, Pittie/Rottie mix that ARE "packmates", they live in the same home together so interacted together) that I was responsible for dealing with and caring for, as a group, together, communally, as a "pack", as you mention. All three of these were prior rescue dogs with individual problems of their own. I handled them fine. Does it matter that they don't live in my home?
 
And I must say, from working with a range of other animals, I must say I would find it much easier to deal with three or five owerful dogs on a daily basis than a house of 14 smaller ones that all share the same living space. The larger the number, the more complex it becomes. I would think that's pretty common sense, but perhaps it's not. And 14 makes for a complex living arrangement I promise you. So while you might have some superior experential advantage in weight (if you really feel that somehow having large dogs is more special or important), if you only have three or five dogs you don't have the work of fourteen separate personalities, even if they ARE small dogs. The family dynamic is a heck of a lot different, especially when you handle routinely intact dogs for years on end. So let's not start a pissing contest please, because I'm not interested. I have better things to do.

Yes, I do feel there is a difference in dealing with large powerful breeds, just the damage that can take place when big dogs fight, 2 months ago I was dealing with 3 GSDs (the oldest had to be put down), 1 Husky/ Mal. mix, 1 Husky and 1 Husky/Chow mix.......just the pure physical power of all these dogs under one roof is certainly a tad different than having tiny dogs.....I am sorry....it is what it is....not taking away anything from your abilities....but you really have to convince me before I believe that.

There it is DEPRIVATION stated by Kim MacMillan.  How arrogant of us humans to assume the level of frustration that we exert on a dog.  That we can measure it and assume it is insignificant.  As I have stated in many post, I am interested in the psychological impact of deprivation and satiation in Clicker Training so I don't harm a True SA dog while teaching obedience training.  You say it does not exist in Clicker Training so I have nothing to worry about...there will be no harm to the dog.  Can you guarantee this?

 
I didn't say that was deprivation! Deprivation, when used in the scientific sense, means that animals are withheld food, water, or social interaction, for limited periods of time, and their ONLY access to such things is by working (such as pressing a lever, or by tracking, or by ______), that is deprivation. Working to survive. Not giving out rewards to mark good behaviour.  How in god's good grace can you say that using a clicker to teach is depriving an animal of anything? My dogs still get their breakfast, supper, and bedtime cookie (and usually many things in between!) regardless if I use a clicker that day or not.
 
I didn't say it was insignificant. But it's a fact of life, dogs have to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them, and our guys learn it from puppyhood and they are very, very stable adults.  That's WHY you get dogs with SA. Because dogs don't learn how to thrive short-term as an individual without getting in a frazzle because I'm spending five minutes with another dog instead. Perhaps you have some really unstable dogs and that's different, but if that's the case the problem extends far beyond the scope of just being a problem with using a clicker.
 
Once again, the clicker is a moot point.
 
I see you failed to answer any of my questions about how you work around the issue of having other dog be un-involved while you work with a particular dog. The day you can explain how a dog waiting its turn with the clicker is any different than a dog waiting its turn for anything else, is the day I might even consider that what I'm doing is harmful. I know my dogs, I know how to read dogs (believe it or not), I know about stress in dogs (believe it or not), and I know that my dogs are not hurt by it when I work with another dog with a clicker.  Feel free to drop in at any time to witness that, because obviously I can't be trusted to know my own dogs. I suppose my experience in observation, behaviour, training, and my psych degree is all for naught, because I use a clicker. Whatever was I thinking? Shame on me.

Yes, I do feel there is a difference in dealing with large powerful breeds, just the damage that can take place when big dogs fight, 2 months ago I was dealing with 3 GSDs (the oldest had to be put down), 1 Husky/ Mal. mix, 1 Husky and 1 Husky/Chow mix.......just the pure physical power of all these dogs under one roof is certainly a tad different than having tiny dogs.....I am sorry....it is what it is....not taking away anything from your abilities....but you really have to convince me before I believe that.

 
Sure thing, and when you live with fourteen dogs in one living quarters for years on end, we'll talk.

Sure thing, and when you live with fourteen dogs in one living quarters for years on end, we'll talk.

 
 
Did I tell you I have cats, too? Oh wait, and a rabbit.....do they count, they weigh about as much as your dogs......they should count[]

I just have to say that 14 dogs are 14 dogs!  14 kids to raise are 14 kids!  Doesn#%92t matter the size, but the breed may play apart IMO.  I have three dogs total weight 212 lbs, if that matters.   I have always in my life had large dogs, GSD, St. Bernard, Rottie and now a GSMD (which of all is the largest and strongest), all were power breeds.  I have also owned toy poodles, beagle (plenty of smaller mutts) and now a pug.
 
Out of all my dogs the large breeds were by far the easiest to train no matter what training method I used.  I use many techniques depending on what is working for that dog but the smaller breed, urh…   they are the hardest in my experience.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

I see you failed to answer any of my questions about how you work around the issue of having other dog be un-involved while you work with a particular dog. The day you can explain how a dog waiting its turn with the clicker is any different than a dog waiting its turn for anything else, is the day I might even consider that what I'm doing is harmful. I know my dogs, I know how to read dogs (believe it or not), I know about stress in dogs (believe it or not), and I know that my dogs are not hurt by it when I work with another dog with a clicker.  Feel free to drop in at any time to witness that, because obviously I can't be trusted to know my own dogs. I suppose my experience in observation, behaviour, training, and my psych degree is all for naught, because I use a clicker. Whatever was I thinking? Shame on me.

 
Did not understand your first 2 sentences.  In my home either the dogs are separated in two packs when I am not at home or they are all together as one pack when I am at home.  To work with a dog on clicker training I have to separate the pack and I have to leave the neighborhood.  Can not do it on the property without the other dogs wanting to be engaged and being very anxious.
 
Now with all of the observation, experience, and education mentioned...I still did not see a guarantee in writing of no harm coming to a SA dog if trained by Clicker the traditional way.

Now with all of the observation, experience, and education mentioned...I still did not see a guarantee in writing of no harm coming to a SA dog if trained by Clicker the traditional way.

Your kidding right?  Your looking for another person with a strong opinion on a subject to give you written guarantee?[sm=abducted.gif]

Really.. what harm will come to any dog using a clicker?  I use a clicker from time to time to train with my dogs and sometimes just to play games and I never gave it any thought (inexpierenced as I am), all my dogs are together most of the time unless one deceides to not participate and go lay on the bed instead. [8|]  But they wait their turns, they know who I am speaking to?  Really they do and they don't try to mustard in either.  I play a game with the clicker where I call out their name and throw the ball down the hallway, when the right dog goes and gets it, they get a click and treat. []  When the wrong dog goes I say ett, ett and he will stop and wait and let the other dog go.  I use to rotate so they knew whos turn it was automatically but now I mix it up and often call the same dog two times in a row.  THEY LOVE IT and neither one gets anxious - they watch me and listen for their names - its a goof.  I also do touch lessions with both of them and call one to me and tell the other to down and stay.  They stay and watch and wait for their turn.  Sometimes I do a session with both of them to touch or find something in the box, who ever gets it gets a click and treat!  I found it helpful in training stay, down and getting them to focus on me.  I am not a clicker trainer ersay, but I love it to teach new things to them and play games they love. That's   If your dogs are getting anxious then maybe you could try something that can involved them both.

Not in the literal sense of writing up a guarantee but asking to consider the risk of purposely creating anxiety in a dog that has a history of true SA...where the A stands for anxiety.  Everyone seems to say there isn't because deprivation and satisation does not exist in training methods.  Science definition or street definition, who cares, its real.  My behaviorist/trainer....the clicker instructor I use, at least said he doesn't know and to err on the cautious side we modified the training to minimize any anxiety of withholding a treat or the frustration that is created when the dog does not figure what behavior is being requested. 

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

Mein Gott, mein Gott......

Well, I only speak English, sorry. I don't know what your first words were,

 
My God, My God I think, it has been years and my german was never very good.

To work with a dog on clicker training I have to separate the pack and I have to leave the neighborhood.  Can not do it on the property without the other dogs wanting to be engaged and being very anxious.

 
You have to leave the neighbourhood? You're not serious I hope? If you have to pack up and leave you whole town because your dog gets anxious due to the sound of a clicker, you have problems delving much deeper than a clicker I'm afraid! You've got some very fundamental problems there that have nothing to do with a clicker.
 
One thing I don't think you realize is how much of a confidence booster the clicker can be for problem dogs. I have seen the use of a clicker in teaching, almost miraculously, teach dogs that they don't have to be afraid. They teach dogs to love being left, and yes, they can teach dogs to be alone as well. The clicker can be used for far more than to teach a dog to sit. Perhaps you should read up on some of the literature involving clicker work in such cases.
 
So, if you've got dogs that are that messed up (and perhaps you do), do you really think leaving the neighborhood and leaving a "true SA" dog behind is any less stressful? Seriously? If anything I would think packing up and taking off with a dog would be WAY more stressful than making it wait its turn with you sitting right in the next room! Do you have to get groceries now and again? Do they go shopping with you? Do you go to the bathroom without your dogs? Now seriously, I realize how big of a problem true SA is, I do, but if you have a dog with true SA (as in separation anxiety), then I think it's a heck of a lot more stressful for the dog to be separated than it is to learn a little self control. And in all honesty I'm not sure how having SA (the separation part) has anything to do with a dog learning impulse control and a little bit of self control while you are there!
 
And you know, perhaps the anxiety is coming from something else entirely other than the clicker. Heaven knows that I'd feel a lot more anxiety with a choke chain affecting my breathing and temporarily closing in on my trachea, or a myriad of metal prongs digging into my neck. Heck I'd feel a lot more anxiety when I didn't realize there were "turns" to wait, that my turn would come. Perhaps there is something else in your environment that is causing them to experience anxiety other than the clicker.
 
I don't know what kind of guarantee you're looking for. I don't guarantee anything in science, that's the joy of it. I'm telling you MY account with MY dogs, and how that account is truly anxiety-free. I didn't say all dogs in the world could do it anxiety free. And perhaps you need to use a ball-point pen instead of a clicker if the noise is too much. Or separate the dogs while you teach if the dog has no self control (but I'd think that teaching the dog self-control would be slightly more important for that dog's well-being). But you raised the blanket statement that a clicker doesn't work in multi-dog households well. I falsified that statement with evidence to the contrary. Nothing more.
 
Perhaps you are a one-in-a-billion that can't work a clicker around your dogs for anxiety reasons. There are indeed special cases that exceptions. I never said otherwise. But just because you have a special case, with dogs with some very severe behaviour problems and quality of life issues,  that doesn't mean that the other 2 billion families in this world that have multiple dogs in their homes, dogs that are relatively normal, cannot use a clicker amongst the group problem- and anxiety-free.

I do have a dog who is pretty messed up and clicker training has been nothing but great for him. He has no problem being seperated while I train with Marlowe because I don't make that seperation be a punishmnet. I seperate my dogs all the time, and I myself am also seperated from them all the time because that is just life. I have to go to work. I do different, seperate things with my dogs. Taking one out for training is no different. If my husband is home, Conrad stays in whatever room he's in and they enjoy each other's company. If no one else is home, Conrad goes to his kennel with a high value toy, just like any other time I have to leave him alone. Then we switch. Each dog gets the fun training time with me and each dog gets some down time alone with a tasty bone. As far as location, I don't know about the layout of your house but I never find it necessary to leave my property. I go to a different floor, or sometimes I go out to the yard. And much of this seperation is actually for me, not the dogs. I can't concentrate on training more than one dog at once in a brand new behavior. There's just too much going on, my timing suffers. In a group class, I'm still only focusing on my one dog, and my dog is still only engaging with the one person in the whole room that he knows and is familiar with and hearing the click coming from that person is a million times more meaningful to him than the other clicks going on at various other distances by various other people that he doesn't know from Adam.

Honestly, snownose, you really seem like you're reaching here. You can't attack clicker training on the grounds that it's ineffective, because clearly properly applied it is or there wouldn't be clicker trained obedience and utility titled dogs. It just seems like you're being contrary, taking a method that is the least harmful to the dogs of all the training methods I've encountered and blowing up any tiny little what-if to make it sound like it's actually us who are willfully torturing and tormenting our dogs. And honestly, you don't see how that sounds kind of ridiculous?

Honestly, snownose, you really seem like you're reaching here. You can't attack clicker training on the grounds that it's ineffective, because clearly properly applied it is or there wouldn't be clicker trained obedience and utility titled dogs. It just seems like you're being contrary, taking a method that is the least harmful to the dogs of all the training methods I've encountered and blowing up any tiny little what-if to make it sound like it's actually us who are willfully torturing and tormenting our dogs. And honestly, you don't see how that sounds kind of ridiculous?

 
 
Show me where I ever mentioned that people clicker training their dogs is torturing or tormenting them.....now, that is reaching.......what I commented on was that I didn't think it was necessary to pop out lunchmeat or roast for the most simple things like getting your dog to go out, I did say that was over the top for me.
 
You are running with this again by pointing out that your method is the "LEAST HARMFUL", another little stab at other methods of training.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

You have to leave the neighbourhood?

 
Can't comprehend a different home setup that is different from yours?  I have giant breeds and I bring in fosters which always come with some kind of behavior issues.  Yes, I have to leave my neighborhood for any focus training.  700 pounds of dogs make quite a loud barking sound.  I have a two story and most homes in my neighborhood are one story.  The dogs go to the second floor and can see the entire neighborhood.  Remember I don#%92t have upteen teeney tiny dogs that I could just zip, store, or pack into a suitcase size crate.  These are the giant breeds and could do a lot of damage.  I am very big on routine and consistency and formal training is temporary over a short span of time.  I chose to accommodate the pack.
 
I am just a mere JQP but I have studied Karen Pryor#%92s work, watched her videos, gets her newletter, watched your videos, taken formal obedience courses, tried all the variation of clickers, and practice a lot.  No foster leaves my home without having been exposed to Clicker Training or some other variation that may include corrections.  Adopters of my dogs get a lesson and demo from me.  I demo at the foster dog showings at Petsmart twice a month, that is if I make it.  If I may be so bold to say, I may have surpassed your experience because I am delving deeper by exploring the edges.  Something you seem to refuse to do.  So you need not tell me the benefits of clicker training or marker training and that it is a confidence booster. 
 
Upfront I wish I was honestly told to watch out for weight gain in a dog because of so many treats.  That is an important thing to know because it comes on so gradual and can go unobserved.  I had a big fight with my organization over the weight gain.  Upfront I wish someone had told me about how other dogs in the house would react.  Upfront I wish someone would have told me that Clicker Training is not pure positive and that –p or –r is present, whichever.  These are just a few things I wasn#%92t told and I had to find out on my own and then create workarounds.
 
I am going to pass on your comments on the SA dog.  It is sad situation and one that I have managed successfully over the past year with a foster dog.  I know what I am doing.  My goal is to not manage but to eventually eliminate and Clicker Training plays a big part in that.  I am a free thinker and I do have ideas and the roadblocks you and Ron2 set up, just creates more drive in me.
 
BTW, I did not say that a clicker doesn#%92t work in multi-dog households.  I said it was not practical and I use my house as an example. 
 
You made the statement “Clicker teaching does not involve deprivation, not in any way, shape or form”.  Whatever your definition of deprivation is, what is the human action that create the –R or –P in Clicker Training.  Could it be the depriving of a treat?
 

Can't comprehend a different home setup that is different from yours?  I have giant breeds and I bring in fosters which always come with some kind of behavior issues.  Yes, I have to leave my neighborhood for any focus training.  700 pounds of dogs make quite a loud barking sound.  I have a two story and most homes in my neighborhood are one story.  The dogs go to the second floor and can see the entire neighborhood.  Remember I don#%92t have upteen teeney tiny dogs that I could just zip, store, or pack into a suitcase size crate.  These are the giant breeds and could do a lot of damage.  I am very big on routine and consistency and formal training is temporary over a short span of time.  I chose to accommodate the pack.

 
No, I can't comprehend leaving the neighbourhood. I find it easy to comprehend different home setups. I hope your dogs never see you happen to pet another dog on your way to the bookstore then, or watch you give a treat to a puppy in training at the supermarket, because heck, they might just get a little anxious since I'm "sure" they are watching you all day long out the window. Again, I think there is a fundatmental relationship issue the delves far further than anything to do with training.
 

If I may be so bold to say, I may have surpassed your experience because I am delving deeper by exploring the edges.

 
Yes, and I never explore the edges either. That's why I've devoted my life to learning. [] If you decide that it's not a confidence booster,than I think you need to find some new edges and stop hanging out on the center dance floor. [] Because the literature on THAT is astounding.
 
You think it's not practical. I think it's extremely practical and would never do it any other way. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. []