Dog Community

Posted : 8/31/2007 2:58:30 PM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

let me use the "speeding" example: The cops want you to drive at 55 mph on a road. You prefer to drive at 100 mph cause it's fun-- it is intrinsically motivating to you to go really fast (self-rewarding +R).
Cop applies nagging-+P: when he sees you speeding, he makes you stop and punishes you by giving you a ticket. Your behavior of speeding is temporarily suppressed, but after a few days you're back to speeding. You also don't feel kindly towards cops for the rest of your life. This the method most people use when they train dogs-- the collar correction, the NO.
Cop applies effective +P: he booby traps your car so it explodes if you go over 55 mph. Two explosions later you decide to never speed again. You're also a nervous wreck wheneever you are in a car for the rest of your life. You don't associate cops with the explosion, so you feel fine towards cops.
Cop applies +R: whenever he sees you driving at 55 mph he gives you a hundred dollar bill. You spend a lot more time driving at 55 mph. You love cops.
Cop applies -R: cop booby traps your car so it makes a horrible squealing noise whenever you go over 55 mph. After a few experiences you never drive over 55 mph again. You don't associate cop with the booby trap so you feel fine towards cops.
Cop applies -P: can't really come up with a good way to apply -P to modify self-rewarding behaviors.

Mudpuppy, I came up with a -P example.
Cop applies -P: When every you drive over 55mph the cop takes away you car radio, mp3 player etc. for a week. Therefore you are less likely to drive 55mph, but you still don't like the cop.

mrv

Posted : 8/31/2007 4:00:08 PM

Pushing on the butt causes an oppositional reflex to occur. Try it. Have your dog stand be side you. Push on one shoulder, the dog will resist, push the other shoulder, dog will switch the resistance to that side. The same thing happens with pushing a dog into a sit. Yeah it works but it is not efficient and it does not teach your dog to think.

houndlove

Posted : 8/31/2007 5:36:11 PM

I originally didn't train Marlowe to sit using molding (I used lure/reward), but I think I did kind of inadvertently train him to sit if I touch his butt. He doesn't oppose at all, he just goes right down. I only use it when he's so distracted by his surroundings that he forgets he has a bum. Now, try to mold him in to a "down" and you'll have a battle on your hands.

One nifty thing I did learn about that actually uses oppositional reflex to train was the way our CGC trainer taught "stay". Have the dog sit, hold the leash just a couple inches from the collar, tug forward on it just a little bit until you feel the dog resist and then reward for that. I have to say, it did work. Marlowe has an excellent stay for a dog with as little formal training as he's had.

mrv

Posted : 9/1/2007 7:30:25 AM

A touch is not enough to evoke the reflex. The issue is apply pressure (regardless) of wear on the body, the animal will respond with opposing pressure.

Pulling on the lead to get a dog moving initially results in the dog pulling the opposite direction. Pushing a dog into a sit or a down initially gets the opposite reaction. You can get around it and in some cases, physical placement can make some sense. But if you use it as a common training approach, it can often appear at in opportune times (trying to lift your dog, trying to get your dog to stand for weighing, etc)

It is natural for humans to use their hands in this manner. The problem is it is also natural for the dogs to resist.

ron2

Posted : 9/1/2007 8:07:42 AM

+^2p +r +^6r = 0

note that if
+^2p +r +^6r > 0 then your dogs is still in an agitated state

and if
+^2p +r +^6r = 0 your dogs is calm submissive

and if
+^2p +r +^6r < 0 your dog went to sleep with that chest rub

(see how ez that is?)

Oh, Baby! I think I need a cigarette after that.

Ixas_girl

Posted : 9/1/2007 10:30:19 AM

[sm=funnypost.gif] .... [sm=elvis.gif]

R+, R-, P+, P- explained