R+, R-, P+, P- explained

R means the behavior is Reinforced, it's more likely to occur in future
 
P means the behavior is Punished, it's less likely to occur in future
 
+ means the dog "got something" : addition sign
- means something was "removed":  subtraction sign
 
In some situations the dog may get multiple quadrants at once.
Dog walking in prong collar: when he pulls into the collar he gets +P from the pinch; when he stops pulling he gets -R from the relief from the pinch; and his owner may also stop moving forward when he pulls on the leash, thus withholding the reward of going forward (-P) and also praise him when he stops pulling, thus also getting +R.
Which explains why most dogs rapidly stop pulling when walked in prong collars.

 The descriptions have been very helpful to me and thanks very much for posting them. I feel sort of like I am back in algebra class with all this +p amd -p ,and I was never strong in algebra.
 
 I have never labeled what I do nor tried to figure out what the ratio of +p to -p is in my training methods. From looking at your descriptions I fall under a mostly positive method, with some minor leash corrections.
 
 And I am still waiting on someone to inform me if placing gentle pressure on the bottom to assist a sit is considered to be P or R?

Molding (pushing the butt down) is probably not operating in the scheme of operant conditioning. It can become sort of classical conditioning, or similar to luring, just getting the dog in position so you have the opportunity to reward. For most dogs being gently molded is fairly neutral as far as their perception of it. It has been found to not really be the most effective form of training if you're doing it a lot though. Dogs have an opposition reflex that often makes them automatically push back into a force that is pushing on them. 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Molding (pushing the butt down) is probably not operating in the scheme of operant conditioning. It can become sort of classical conditioning, or similar to luring, just getting the dog in position so you have the opportunity to reward. For most dogs being gently molded is fairly neutral as far as their perception of it. It has been found to not really be the most effective form of training if you're doing it a lot though. Dogs have an opposition reflex that often makes them automatically push back into a force that is pushing on them. 

 
 Well that is good news, at least it is not perceived as being cruel.
 
 it is interesting that you say it has been found to not be the most effective. I can say with honesty that teaching sit with treats and a little molding is easy and can be achieved very quickly. Hektor was only shown about 3 times and understood. Just how fast are you guys teaching sit using the algebra methods?

Its not that it's always ineffective, but if you're doing it a lot that's usually a sign that it's not effective for your dog. Dogs can get used to the feel of that hand molding them and will wait for it instead of responding to the verbal command. I'm certainly guilty of that with the "sit" with Marlowe. If you're just using it for a couple trials in order to reward and after that stop having to touch the dog to get a response, you're doing it right. But a lot of people just keep molding over and over and over and that's not teaching the dog anything.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Its not that it's always ineffective, but if you're doing it a lot that's usually a sign that it's not effective for your dog. Dogs can get used to the feel of that hand molding them and will wait for it instead of responding to the verbal command. I'm certainly guilty of that with the "sit" with Marlowe. If you're just using it for a couple trials in order to reward and after that stop having to touch the dog to get a response, you're doing it right. But a lot of people just keep molding over and over and over and that's not teaching the dog anything.

 
 yes that makes more sense now. I agree, I think the reward and the praise are the most important part, if I just said the word and used the hand that would be very ineffective and the dog would most likely get tired of me pushing him down as he would have no understanding of why and no motivation for complying.

The descriptions have been very helpful to me and thanks very much for posting them. I feel sort of like I am back in algebra class with all this +p amd -p ,and I was never strong in algebra.

welcome back to algebra

there is some advanced algebra ya know... here's how it goes:


you know that "shhhht" sound that CM is famous for?
well, when he goes "shhhht" at the same time he gives a leash jerk, the symbol for that is

+PP

one could also imagine multiple snaps on the leash with a few "shhhht"'s tossed for good measure:

+PPPPP

and it is here we start to use shorhand notation

+PPPPP = +P^5

see how easy that is?

[]

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

The descriptions have been very helpful to me and thanks very much for posting them. I feel sort of like I am back in algebra class with all this +p amd -p ,and I was never strong in algebra.

welcome back to algebra

there is some advanced algebra ya know... here's how it goes:


you know that "shhhht" sound that CM is famous for?
well, when he goes "shhhht" at the same time he gives a leash jerk, the symbol for that is

+PP

one could also imagine multiple snaps on the leash with a few "shhhht"'s tossed for good measure:

+PPPPP

and it is here we start to use shorhand notation

+PPPPP = +P^5

see how easy that is?

[]

 
lostcoyote
 
 you are making my head hurt. I am off to grab my 13 year old to assist me (been out of school a lonnnnnnnggggg time)
 
 no seriously it makes sense, but do you really need to know all the calculations and jargon?  Isn't is sufficient to use what you use, providing it meets your requirements, does not harm the dog and achieves the results that you are seeking?
 
 I ask this because the concepts make sense, the jargon (+p etc) complicates it.

you are making my head hurt. I am off to grab my 13 year old to assist me (been out of school a lonnnnnnnggggg time)

no seriously it makes sense, but do you really need to know all the calculations and jargon? Isn't is sufficient to use what you use, providing it meets your requirements, does not harm the dog and achieves the results that you are seeking?

I ask this because the concepts make sense, the jargon (+p etc) complicates it.

hi dgriego

yes, i was being silly and just injecting some humor here. am i a goofball? yes. i do agree with you. i do not think in terms of the +p+r-p-r jargon. but i did wish to understand what each term referred to because i see it used quite a bit on these forums by the modern dog trainers herein. for those that do use it extensively, more power to them.

after explanation by several other members, i understand the 4 quads now.

for me, personally, i understand what positive reinforcement & desired behavior is as well as negative corrections. i do them intuitively with my dogs wirthout thinking or having to break things down this way or that way according to this person's textbook +/-PR analysis. i just go with the flow and enjoy walking my dogs and the encounters along the way (except for those blasted charging fence dogs that get through an open gate)

anyway, here is an equation for an alpha roll for your 13 year old to solve:

+p^3 -2r +^2r^3 +^2p^4 = 0

find the p/r ratio.


.:.

LOL! [sm=rofl.gif]

Can you make an equation for:

"eh-eh" with a gentle leash pop, then a "good girl!" followed by a chest rub?

Careful, you guys are going to get Ron all excited! []

Personally, I play around a bit with the "> & <" symbols when I think of dominant and subordinant. []

Note: "&" is not intended to mean "+" or "=". [8D]
 
ETA: Seems to me, Houndlove posted a pretty good description of the OC quadrants in a clicker training discussion thead. I'd like to see that one again.

"eh-eh" with a gentle leash pop, then a "good girl!" followed by a chest rub?

+^2p +r +^6r = 0

note that if
+^2p +r +^6r > 0 then your dogs is still in an agitated state

and if
+^2p +r +^6r = 0 your dogs is calm submissive

and if
+^2p +r +^6r < 0 your dog went to sleep with that chest rub

(see how ez that is?)


oh, i'd better get back on topic or else i'm gonna get +P^2 (strike 2) & ron's gonna kill me

I agree with the linked reference that -R rarely gets used. An applied irritant is removed when a behavior stops.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned as I have not had time to read all the replies but I think a prong collar is a good example of negative reinforcement.
 

  And, at least with humans, it can be tough to do +R because not every one thinks to reward for good behavior.

 
Well, good behaviour is so convenient!

Random points:  Negative reinforcement only occurs when the stimulus happens concurrently, and the when the behavior occurs, the "aversive" stimulus stops.  So a prong collar is only negative reinforcement if the moment the dog starts moving the collar is tight and the dog stops pulling  (stops pulling is more likely to occur again).  If the dog starts without pulling and then the collar tightens it was more likely punishment. 
 
The technique used can ONLY be defined by the long term impact on behavior.   Occassionally you get "one" trial learning which typcially occurs with mind alterning behaviors (addictions) and punishment that is perceived as potentially deadly.

And I am still waiting on someone to inform me if placing gentle pressure on the bottom to assist a sit is considered to be P or R?

 
I would say pushing down on the butt is -R: unpleasant pressure which goes away when the butt goes down. IMHO it's the second-least-effective method of training a sit.
 
 
I know it may be confusing, but if you really want to be a highly effective trainer you need to study these concepts. You can muddle along and get your dog behaving ok, but what do you do when you have a problem, or the dog doesn't respond as planned, or your new dog isn't responding to the techniques you used for the last five dogs?
 
I would suggest everyone read Karen Pryor's classic "Don't shoot the dog". Even if you don't own a dog. It's clear, concise, and applicable to all interactions with living beings.