Dog Psychology or Pop Psychology?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Well you could start by seeing the name of all the "related articles" at the left of the page

Those are external links to totally different web sites.  Those articles aren't really the topic of this thread.

 
Then i guess the author should not call them "related" then

Then i guess the author should not call them "related" then

Well, just b/c the website is posting the article doesn't mean the author of the article is also the webmaster of the site.  I post people's articles on my web sites (with their permission) and they have no say in what links and buttons I use in my navbars.

Anyway....

houndlove
 
 You have pointed out many interesting things in your last post. I would love to see Cesar debate other trainers and I would love to see the dogs he has failed with. I would be willing to put money on the fact that he has failed. You are also correct that he does not need to place himself against anyone, he is in a position of control within his environment and doing so would probably be counter productive.
  I know for a fact that there are many dogs out there that one cannot "fix" in a 30-minute program. Now mind you in all fairness to him, he does let owners know that they must change and that they must be consistent with their dogs or everything he has shown them will be for naught.
 
quote "I have been just as turned off by a number of really aggressive, dismissive, condescending Cesar-supporters, so it's not just one side of the debate that sometimes gets too personal at times. " quote
 
 Since that is most likely for me, I will speak to it.
 It is not my intention to be aggressive or dismissive. I rarely if ever attack anyone's training philosophy unless I have reached the point where I believe they are doing so. I suppose I could be considered a Cesar-supporter. I do not subscribe to everything, I do not really use his philosophy in my training, other than I am the leader and my dogs are the followers. But I do see him as a pro dog person, I see him as someone who has arrived at a place where they can mass educate and is attempting to do so. I see that as more good than bad. I often wonder how it will be to interview him 20 years from now? Will he still be exactly the same? Will he have changed some of his methods, maybe even all of them? I have been working with dogs for 28 years; more if you count the fact that my entire childhood was also spent trying to "connect" with animals and primarily dogs. I am nothing like I was at 18, or at 22, or even at 30. And more importantly, I do not know everything, I am not the guru of all guru#%92s, I do not have all the answers and am still striving to learn more about dogs and how to better communicate with them to achieve the best results. I suppose I feel that Cesar should be given the benefit of the doubt, that if there are questions regarding his methods they should be delivered as questions, not attacks and not generalizations of "he always pokes and yanks and rolls". And I believe he will learn and progress by wanting to, and not by having people paint him out to be a bad trainer who is causing all the dogs of the world to rise and bite their inexperienced owners, just because they tried a Cesar method at home.
 

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ORIGINAL: Liesje

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I still have not been able to find any of the personal insults you posted in the article that Anne linked.  Just because one person on the 'net insults CM doesn't mean that we should assume anyone who offers an analysis of his  methods automatically agrees with whoever was insulting him.  I don't have time to read articles containing personal insults. ....

 
 
I believe I posted regarding this. I did not say that these insults were listed specifically on the site but was referring to the general theme of anti Cesar people across this and other forums
 
I would end (must go to work now) with the definition of pop physiology (just replace the word human with the word dog), which if I gave this as a definition of your training philosophy would you take it as an insult, a compliment? How do you think the term was meant on the website? Was it meant in a positive manner or a derogatory one? Perhaps I misunderstood the context.
 
 
The term popular psychology (frequently called pop psychology or pop psych), refers to concepts and theories about human mental life and behaviour that are purportedly based on [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology]psychology[/link] and that attain popularity amongst the general population.
The term is often derogatory, used to describe psychological concepts that are oversimplified, out of date, unproven, misunderstood or misinterpreted; however, the term may also be used to describe professionally-produced psychological knowledge, regarded by most experts as valid and effective, that is intended for use by the general public.

Actually, fortunately, there's no one on the forum right now that is one of the folks I'm speaking of regarding being aggressive, condescending and just plain rude. It's quite nice! Once upon a time here there were a couple people who were mainly here to cause trouble and stir the pot so to speak. They seem to have left the building (or been banned, I have no idea), fortunately. I've also encountered similar folks on other dog forums. So I wasn't really referring to anyone in the present debate, just saying that no "side" is immune from forgetting themselves or just plain blatant rudeness.

ORIGINAL: snownose

And for a moment of comedic relief...

As regards CM's methods, They also work on children!

Lol....I remember that episode[]

I wonder if CM has ever dumped on another trainer or method in public......would be good to know.

I don't know, but perhaps he should be.  He could start with Richling. [:'(]

I have not come across anyone yet who has been bitten due to using a Cesar technique.

  You haven't looked hard enough.  Even CM gets bitten too much for my taste.  If you are a really good behaviorist/trainer, the object is not to trigger a dog's aggression - that just enables the dog to practice poor behavior, and it's reinforcing for some dogs to enforce their personal space requirements by using their teeth.

I believe Cesar is evolving. He has changed since his first show. I believe that he has a genuine love for dogs and truly desires to assist them.

I completely agree.  And, perhaps he will eventually come to the same decision a lot of us former traditional trainers have...positive training works, if you work it correctly.  And, it doesn't destroy your relationship with your dog.  And, it is not at odds with a theory of "calm, assertive" handler behavior.

The interviews done by Steve Dale on his radio show were really quite revealing. He refused to actually have a conversation with other behaviorists, it had to just be a one-on-one interview. He was quite defensive when Dale asked at the end if he'd be willing to come back for such a conversation.

This bothered me, too, and is one reason that I think it pays for his followers to read articles like the one in my OP.  If "pop psychology" works, it should stand up under scrutiny and its practitioners should not object to being scrutinized, or answering questions posed to them by other dog lovers, other trainers, other behaviorists, vets, etc.

That was enough for me to assume the topic was Cesar and his dog psyhcology theory.

Actually, since I posted the OP, I will tell you that the discussion is actually about valid science (dog psychology) or "pop" science (CM and anyone else who is practicing it - could be animal communicators, energy workers who claim benefits to the dogs that can't be measured, take your pick).  If you wish to expand the conversation to include others, feel free.  It might help us to get back to the idea at hand, which has less to do with CM, and more to do with science versus cult, or science versus anecdotal evidence. []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

positive training works, if you work it correctly.  And, it doesn't destroy your relationship with your dog. 

And that goes absolutely for both ways, behaviorists techniques work if you work them correctly, i practice those techniques and i dont have a destroyed relationship with my dog or any dog i've been with

I  heard the interview radio, He never refused to actually have a conversation with other behaviorists, he just wanted to make sure that those others behaviorists were not just to come and talk trash about his methods, we cant blame him for that

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ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Actually, since I posted the OP, I will tell you that the discussion is actually about valid science (dog psychology) or "pop" science (CM and anyone else who is practicing it - could be animal communicators, energy workers who claim benefits to the dogs that can't be measured, take your pick).

Quite true! And I think there's actually room for both! There is science in dog behavior, I think we can all agree on that. And I personally think there is room for the "woo-woo" factor as well. Why does one have to cancel the other out? Why must we pit one against each other and choose sides? I use both. If they serve me and my pack, I'm going to use them. Both. And they do.

I DO believe my dogs can read my energy. I do believe we communicate on a level that doesn't have anything to do with treats or praise or science.

The fact that the article's title lauds Dog Science and reviles other methods (CM in particular) as trickery, mystical and trendy "pop" psychology pits methodologies against each other where it's not necessary. It's all good. If she had come out lauding the science side of things without going after Cesar, I'd have had a much easier time relating to her and I wouldn't have been turned off.

A good method stands on it's own. It's doesn't need to poo-poo others' views to succeed. I think she does herself a GREAT diservice here.

I would love to hear this radio interview you guys are refering to. I don't suppose it's in a PODcast somewhere?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
I wonder, if CM started utilizing more and more positive theory, if those that staunchly defended his "way" would still defend those methodologies rather than following the icon.  Just a thought.

I would do just what I'm doing now, which is take a little from here, a little from there and do what works well for me.

I have yet to see these pods of Cesar worshippers I hear so much about. I don't know of ANYONE who folows him unquestioningly or treats him as though he's some kind of new age dog god.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I wonder, if CM started utilizing more and more positive theory, if those that staunchly defended his "way" would still defend those methodologies rather than following the icon.  Just a thought.

I remember he suggested at least in two different ocassions in his show to contact a clicker trainer for a couple cases to reinforce the good behavior

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

A good method stands on it's own. It's doesn't need to poo-poo others' views to succeed. I think she does herself a GREAT diservice here.

I could not say it better 

I have not come across anyone yet who has been bitten due to using a Cesar technique.

I have, quite badly in fact.  And no, I was not using CM technique b/c of a TV show, but b/c the behaviorist at our shelter works exactly like him, uses all the same terminology and methods, and we have to do things the way she wants or we get scolded.  I've taken a break from volunteering b/c of that incident.  Not because of the bites or because I'm scared of dogs (I'm not), but we just don't see eye to eye on things and I'm not the only one that got bit, just the one that got bit the worst.  It concerns me b/c there are so few genuine volunteers, but I can't go things that I know are dangerous and will damage the dog's psyche even more.  Now, I prefer to volunteer by doing special events, adoption, and training new volunteers.  I miss working with the dogs, but it's just not the same.

The thing that bugs me about these "CM vs. everyone else" threads is that they are apples to oranges.  Supposedly (going by what CM and his supporters say), he is working with hard cases, not your average family dog behavioral problem.  The other methods like lure/reward, clicker, operant conditioning, etc are all methods designed and marketed towards even the most newbie dog owners.  You can read a good book on clicker training, try it on your own dog, and probably have much success.  You cannot read CM's book and then be equiped to deal with a human aggressive dog.  I don't chose one person over another or one method over another b/c they are both relevant in two totally different situations.  I get a little tired of all the CM this, CM that, b/c he's working with aggressive dogs, the type of dogs most of us will never have and should never be dealing with in the first place.  Even if I hated his guts (which I don't) it wouldn't be worth my time to discredit him b/c I have no intention of ever handling a human aggressive dog.  I want to know good, proven science on how I can relate to my own dog, and for that purpose CM's methods don't apply.  (By methods, I mean the way he actually handles the dogs, not stuff like "exercise, discipline, affection" b/c I don't see those as unique to CM, just common sense you will find on ANY dog trainers show like the other dog training shows on TV).

Well, but what do you do when a method that you really disagree with and think does not work as well as your own gets ALL the press, ALL the attention, and ALL the followers? I mean, not all, but you have to admit there is a huge disparity between the kind of attention Cesar gets and the kind of attention pretty much any other dog trainer in this country gets.

If methods just spoke for themselves, I'd be out of a job anyway. In trying to find the best method, or when you feel that you have found a method that is an improvement over one that is popularily accepted, you have to promote it, you have to write papers and go to conferences and put up web pages in order to tell the world about it and part of that is also talking about why it's better and your evidence for that, and why the other is not as good and your evidence for that. And you do have to express the opinion that one way is better than another way. My boss on the project before the one we're working on now use to write op-ed pieces for journals and newspapers all the time in order to give publicity to the findings of our project, which went very much against "common knowledge". And he did criticize the "old view" and give reasons why ours is more accurate and better.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Well, but what do you do when a method that you really disagree with and think does not work as well as your own gets ALL the press, ALL the attention, and ALL the followers? I mean, not all, but you have to admit there is a huge disparity between the kind of attention Cesar gets and the kind of attention pretty much any other dog trainer in this country gets.

 
Then that means that there are different feelings behind your dislike towards him other than just the "this could be dangerous" ones

Well, but what do you do when a method that you really disagree with and think does not work as well as your own gets ALL the press, ALL the attention, and ALL the followers? I mean, not all, but you have to admit there is a huge disparity between the kind of attention Cesar gets and the kind of attention pretty much any other dog trainer in this country gets.

You know, that used to bug me so much until I started up some covos with friends and acquaintances who sing the praises of CM.  I soon realized that most of them have never dealt with any dog other than their own one or two dogs, who in most cases never had/have a behavioral problem like the dogs on the show.  Their only experience with CM-esque methods is just watching the TV show.  I'll admit, I do enjoy watching and it's fine entertainment.  But that's what initially made me skeptical - the avid fans I was running into had never done any formal training or behavior mod with their dogs beyond basic Petsmart obedience.  I don't like jumping on the bandwagon of people who only know what they know based on the TV show and don't have any experience training or rehabbing dogs.  It doesn't bother me so much anymore.  I see the new volunteers at the shelter come in thinking they are going to be all calm and assertive and say "ssst!" and the giant Saint Bernard that's doing flips in his kennel is just going to sit down and shut up while they open the door and leash him....ha!  They come around REALLY quickly...[]