Dog Psychology or Pop Psychology?

I think it is often the case that a leader controls without force because it's so confident in its ability to win a fight with anyone

 
the dominant dog in my household is the smallest dog and would be slaughtered if she tried to fight one of the other dogs. I'm smaller than several of my dogs and I would be badly injured if not killed if I got into a serious fight with my dogs-- I know I would lose, so how do you explain that I can control my dogs without force?
 Most humans would be completely unable to win a serious fight against any medium to large sized dog. I watch the horses in the field. The "dominant" horse in most groups is usually an elderly mare. If she got into a tiff with the young geldings she'd get the stuffing kicked out of her.
 
The idea that "dominance" depends on ability to win a fight doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.  Humans are really good at misinterpreting the behavior of other animals.

I do have less than 100% respect for those who go out of their way to "discredit Cesar". Hey if it comes up in conversation and you hate him, then tell everyone why you hate him, but those that go out of their way to refute everything he does, to me are showing something that just does not sit well with me. He has and does do a service to dogs. He educates people about dogs.

 
the trainers at my dog club are freaking out about this "education" he is doing- because he's teaching extremely dangerous "training" techniques to people. And they go home and "alpha roll" and poke and jerk their dogs, and their dogs start showing serious behavioral problems and sometimes bite their owners in response. not one dog, not a few dogs, but a lot of dogs. And then the dog trainers at my club have to pick up the pieces and try to re-educate the owners. Who don't listen because of course anyone on TV must know what he is doing. And who suffers? the dogs. 
 
This is why so many eople feel the need to "attack" CM-- they are trying to educate the public into not emulating him FOR THE DOGS SAKE. Doesn't he have a big disclaimer "Do not try this at home"?  so listen to it. 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

 If everyone just went around saying, "Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion, I'm just going to keep mine to myself" nothing would ever happen. ............ If you are not open to having your theories challenged, don't get into any kind of a scientific field.

 
hound
 I love debate and have a very open mind. I do not for instance subscribe to a 100% pack leader, dominance theory. I have read many different books from a host of dog training personalities, attended countless classes and seminars and one of my favorite authors and trainers would be Suzanne Clothier (who's website contains no anti Cesar rhetoric)who is far from being anywhere near the Koehler type Leerburg type trainers. I also do not disagree or disdain the methods listed on the aforementioned website. I just lose respect for those who have an agenda of discrediting the Dog Whisperer who in my opinion has done more for the dog than many other trainers combined. Most of this is due to luck on his part, he has become a celebrity and his show is popular, but nonetheless he has educated many.
 
 Now one could suggest (and this is true in most forms of learning) that if I were an uneducated dog owner, never having read a book and without much interest in dogs per say, and I were having some difficulties with my dog, and I happened to tune in to the Dog Whisperer and low and behold here are people like me, having trouble with their pets! There is hope, perhaps a spark of interest is ignited, why he my dog behaving as he is? Is it possible to live happily with my dog without having to invest in classes, and books and spending hours per day training (most people think it takes a lot more time than it actually does to teach a dog anything)?
 
 Now that my interest is sparked who knows where that might take me? Perhaps only far enough to solve my one problem, perhaps in a few months I will be attending a dog class, perhaps I will discover agility, discover obedience, or just discover the joy of working as one with my dog. If I go this route I will run into trainers who will teach me more, perhaps I will end up far from where I started and will not subscribe to anything I learned while watching the Dog Whisperer, but at least I am now on the path to discovering how wonderful dogs are, so much more than a mere pet or possession.
 
 So what bugs me is that most anti Cesar people do not seem to wish civilized debate. They instead wish to discredit him and paint him as some sort of arrogant, ignorant, manipulative person, who has nothing of value and is out misinforming the world for the purpose of lining his bank account (and with that being said how many free trainers do you know? How many free seminars have you attended?). Most deny that there is anything of value in his teaching and IMO that is arrogant, as I cannot think of any trainer or any seminar or any book from which I learned absolutely nothing of value. Communications from the anti Cesar crowd come across more as preaching instead of debate. Also IMO I think this turns a lot of people off, and prevents them from proceeding on the path of learning.
 
 On another forum a person posted something positive about the Dog Whisperer, having just discovered the program. The intense preaching that sprang from that post caused this person to post saying they were leaving never to return. In PM#%92s with this person it was stated that all they were trying to do was communicate their excitement in having discovered this program and that they felt everyone to be negative to an almost aggressive intensity.
 
 My question is once you have influenced people to this degree have you perhaps prohibited any type of positive communication with them in the future? Are they going to heed your advice? Or will they instead write you off as a pompous ass and go along their merry way?
 
 No insults are intended in this post, I am only trying to provoke thought in how your (everybodys) articular training philosophy is communicated.

So what bugs me is that most anti Cesar people do not seem to wish civilized debate. They instead wish to discredit him and paint him as some sort of arrogant, ignorant, manipulative person, who has nothing of value and is out misinforming the world for the purpose of lining his bank account

Can you cite where on the website the author was doing this?  I'm not a huge fan of CM OR the person who wrote the article, but I don't recall reading anything on the site that accused CM of being "arrogant, ignorant, manipulative person"......

Just wanted to make a few points about what I've read so far.

Spiritdogs, love your aggression/dominance post! Too many people think they're the same thing. I don't think this subject is a dead horse, though. I've never seen as healthy a discussion on this subject as I'm seeing so far in this thread. Bravo.

Secondly, my 'alpha' dog is the least physically healthy of all my dogs. She couldn't win in a fight with ANY of the others. She has hip dysplasia in both sides, a recent ACL surgery and she's stiff and sore a lot of the time. But she rules the dogs. She's calm assertive with the other dogs and calm submissive with me and DH. She doesn't walk around with her chest puffed out. She's cool as a cucumber.

dgriego, Loved your post also! I have noticed that some people (not saying anyone here) hate CM with a sort of passion and to hear them talk about him, I would expect to see him beating the dogs with a stick! [sm=lol.gif] I've even heard a lot of CM's sharpest critic say, "I never watch the show".

Liesje, I agree with you (and so does CM, by the way) that anyone who puts his methods out in public like this opens himself to criticism and should be "man" enough to take it. And I think he does a fine and gracious job of doing that.

houndlove, some very interesting points from your perspective! Thank you. I hadn't thought about the aspects of direct instruction vs discovery learning. I almost think it might depend on the individual who's learning the information. I know that for myself, I retain much more when I "discovery learn" than when someone tells me what to do. Maybe it's the artist's mind or being a "controlling personality" but I can be told 50 times how to do something and forget or not "get" it. But if I'm forced to slog through it and discover on my own how to do something. I remember! And I learn it well and I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. I think it's about being a "controller"... []

mudpuppy, I totally agree with you that we humans are fairly impotent when it comes to interpreting the behavior of other animals! We're arrogant in that way, thinking we have the keys or something. I can see the dogs sitting back chuckling about how they have us so confused trying to figure them out!

As regards people ruining their dogs with CM's methods, do you have any links to boards or articles where this is being discussed? I have searched and can't find any. I'm really curious how prevalent this problem is. And yes, there is a disclaimer right on the screen.

And for a moment of comedic relief...

As regards CM's methods, They also work on children!

And for a moment of comedic relief...

As regards CM's methods, They also work on children!

 
 
Lol....I remember that episode[]
 
I wonder if CM has ever dumped on another trainer or method in public......would be good to know.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Can you cite where on the website the author was doing this?  I'm not a huge fan of CM OR the person who wrote the article, but I don't recall reading anything on the site that accused CM of being "arrogant, ignorant, manipulative person"......

 
Well you could start by seeing the name of all the "related articles" at the left of the page

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Doesn't he have a big disclaimer "Do not try this at home"?  so listen to it. 

 
See? CM even agrees with you, but people still get mad at him, instead of saying "is CM fault" why dont people say instead "those stupid persons doing what they were told not to do themselves"?

Reading around her site, I see that she's going to charge me $600 to teach me how to cure my dog of on-leash aggression. It's clear why her site is basically a bash Cesar Millan fest. He's giving it away for free!

 
Well, there are lots of free articles on how to train your dog on that website.  Just look under Library at the top of the page. 
 
Also I thought that CM's shows had a disclaimer that said "Don't try this at home without a professional".  So if you wanted to do X like CM, you still should hire a pro.  Is this just for some shows or some parts of his training?  I don't have cable, so I've only seen his show once or twice.  Can someone clarify?
 
And I'd be willing to bet that CM is charging the hollywood jet set for his time.  (and he should.)

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

I don't have cable, so I've only seen his show once or twice.  Can someone clarify?

 
Well there is a thread with 49 Cesar Millan videos on the "trainers, philisophies and methods" forum []

mudpuppy
 
 IMO these types of people's dogs have been biting them all along. Long before Cesar. Had they never watched the program they most likely would have ended up with the same results at some point or another. Perhaps bitten for another reason but bitten in the end. This is why people are able to make living training dogs! It is not that hard. One can train dogs without ever seeking professional assistance. But because people are lazy, because some are stupid and have no common sense, trainers are actually able to make a living working with dogs! 
 
 Cesar does have a disclaimer on his program, and he has been very clear on not attempting an alpha roll without professional assistance. The fact that stupid people will attempt something for which they are not qualified does not negate the good he has done for the dog world.
 
 
Quote "And they go home and "alpha roll" and poke and jerk their dogs, and their dogs start showing serious behavioral problems and sometimes bite their owners in response.” end quote
 
 And here again is the assumption that all he is does is violate dogs. He rarely performs an alpha roll (of which I might add I am not an advocate of). And I assume the "poke" you mention is his "cheeee" thing where he touches the neck? Again this is not done hard and it is not painful it is more of a check to bring the dogs attention back to the handler and away from whatever they are fixated on.  The jerk? I have not seen that. I have seen a few dogs going after other dogs and seen him maneuver them away, but I have not seen him yanking and jerking on them as your post implies. Which episode shows him giving hard leash corrections?
 
I have not come across anyone yet who has been bitten due to using a Cesar technique. Nor have I heard any of the trainers bemoaning him and his existence. I do not discount that this may occur. I am sure it does. I to would be interested in hearing more about this. This is always a risk when giving any instruction via television and again I do not think it negates what he has done. I prefer people to learn about dogs and take the risk they will do something stupid, than keep them entirely uneducated and have their dogs all end up in shelters due to misbehavior. I do not believe that our shelters are becoming more full due to Cesar and his teaching but would instead argue that he has probably saved a dog or two that would otherwise been rejected.
 
 I believe Cesar is evolving. He has changed since his first show. I believe that he has a genuine love for dogs and truly desires to assist them. I admire the fact (like Four has stated) that he never resorts to bashing or publicly despising any other trainer or method. He advocates that people should seek professional assistance and yet he does not try and get them to seek out dominance theory only professionals.
 
Liesje
 
 I was referring to anti Cesar persons in general, as this is a topic that comes up often in forum discussions. I did not read all of the websites anti Cesar material and was not trying to accuse her specificaly of calling him these things.

Well you could start by seeing the name of all the "related articles" at the left of the page

Those are external links to totally different web sites.  Those articles aren't really the topic of this thread.

I've heard him speak dismissively of other forms of training in interviews. Sort of "Well, that's fine for them" kind of passive aggressive comments.

He also has the power of the medium he's on granting legitimancy so he doesn't have to defend himself or talk about other training methods if he doesn't want. He doesn't have to talk about other trainers because when he's on TV there are no other trainers. He can act like he's the only dog trainer on the planet because he controls all aspects of how his image is portrayed. He doesn't have to show you dogs he's failed with, he doesn't have to try to get anyone's attention by saying why his methods are better than someone else's. It's all implied by the fact that he's got a best-selling book, a hugely popular TV show and, per an ad I just saw blinking all over Dogster, a well-publicized speaking/seminar tour.

The interviews done by Steve Dale on his radio show were really quite revealing. He refused to actually have a conversation with other behaviorists, it had to just be a one-on-one interview. He was quite defensive when Dale asked at the end if he'd be willing to come back for such a conversation.

I have been just as turned off by a number of really aggressive, dismissive, condescending Cesar-supporters, so it's not just one side of the debate that sometimes gets too personal at times.

Liesje
 
 The title of this thread is Dog Psychology or Pop Psychology, when one goes to the website posted the first thing that pops up is that the author (of the website) does not respect or hold true any of Cesar's philosophy on dogs, therefore it is easy to take the next step and assume this is a discussion on whether Cesar and his way has any merit or whether it is "pop" psychology. Pop can be interrupted as "quack", quirky" "un-scientific" "fad" etc.
 
 That was enough for me to assume the topic was Cesar and his dog psyhcology theory.

Liesje

The title of this thread is Dog Psychology or Pop Psychology, when one goes to the website posted the first thing that pops up is that the author (of the website) does not respect or hold true any of Cesar's philosophy on dogs, therefore it is easy to take the next step and assume this is a discussion on whether Cesar and his way has any merit or whether it is "pop" psychology. Pop can be interrupted as "quack", quirky" "un-scientific" "fad" etc.

That was enough for me to assume the topic was Cesar and his dog psyhcology theory.

I'll let Anne respond with regards to the purpose of her thread.  Somehow I doubt the intended topic was CM's dog theory. []

I still have not been able to find any of the personal insults you posted in the article that Anne linked.  Just because one person on the 'net insults CM doesn't mean that we should assume anyone who offers an analysis of his  methods automatically agrees with whoever was insulting him.  I don't have time to read articles containing personal insults.  The article Anne posted contained none, so I don't really care what other articles people can find that do.  Start another thread about people who personally insult other people....