Dog Community

CM on Puppies

Posted : 7/24/2007 9:01:05 PM

CM will be addressing puppies more extensively in the future, but here is a short clip off his website for now...

"New Puppy?
Start Your Puppy Off Right

For your puppy to grow into a healthy, balanced dog, you must demonstrate leadership from day one.

New puppy owners often make the mistake of endlessly worrying about finding the right puppy treats or bed. They spend little or no time worrying about how or what they will teach their new puppy.

Yes, a puppy needs nutritious food and a safe, warm place to live. But another equally powerful and important biological necessity is the need for a strong pack leader to serve as the dominant source of alpha energy in their lives.

Puppies are naturally hard-wired to follow a pack leader. A pack leader is, by definition, strong, stable and consistent; traits many new puppy owners forget around their dogs. I have had clients who are strong leaders in their jobs, but, when they come home, they turn to mush with their dogs. Then they come to me, puzzled as to why their dog won#%92t behave.

Puppies sense our confidence levels and will take control if they perceive us as weak. When dogs or puppies take control, bad behaviors, such as excessive barking, leash-pulling, or anxiety, will develop.

The most important thing you can do is to become your puppy#%92s pack leader. This role doesn#%92t begin when your dog is six months old or when he#%92s bad. For your puppy to grow into a healthy, balanced dog, you must demonstrate leadership from day one."

Ixas_girl

Posted : 7/24/2007 9:34:40 PM

Reminder, this is the CM Section, with specific rules,http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=331215 :[/size]

This area has been created for those who enjoy C.M and wish to discuss his training, the show and his methods. If you practice other methods of training, there are additional areas available where you would most likely enjoy yourself more, please visit there and contribute.

Although this is a specific area for specific members, all members are welcome as long as they follow the rules and show respect for this area's participants. Breaking these rules, constant sidetracking the topic with training method debates, inflammatory posts, or displaying a general pattern of disruption may result in temporary or permanent removal from this area.

If you find yourself wondering if you should post what you're about to write, please reference the forum rules before doing so: [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=297451]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=297451[/link].

Kat S.

Posted : 8/18/2007 7:42:58 PM

Coyote, you seem like a real Cesar Millan fan. Are you?

Angelique

Posted : 8/19/2007 12:04:12 AM

Cool! I'm looking forward to some puppy episodes this season! [

]

I hope they also show some more work with shelters along with some shows about Cesar's new facility.

I didn't have cable for about eight months, so I'm just now catching up on last season. [8D]

glenmar

Posted : 8/19/2007 8:24:12 AM

I wonder if when it comes to working with pups, many of us who are not enarmoured of CM will find that he is not all that different from the rest of us?

Since I am a benevolent leader of my pack, and since I do establish myself as such with the foster litters and any other fosters, I'm wondering just how differently CM might do this? Clearly with a pup there will be no need for some of the actions that many of us object to. I'll be really curious to see how CM accomplishes this. I suspect that his methods won't be terribly different from mine. Or, at least I hope that's the case. It would be nice to find some common ground with this man

FourIsCompany

Posted : 8/19/2007 8:55:55 AM

I'm also looking forward to his work with puppies. Seeing snippets of him working with his own pack shows me that he is indeed a loving and benevolent leader, not the ogre many see him as.

We have to remember that when we see CM on TV, he's working with "difficult and problem" dogs whose owners, many times have created a "monster" then call on CM to "fix it". Most times, the owners don't know the first thing about dogs, other than they're cute and you have to feed them. Most dogs he works with on TV have been confused, teased, ignored, left to take over the house and/or encouraged to be miserable by owners who desperately need to be trained in 'dog'.

I RARELY use any techniques I learn on the show, because I don't have to. Thanks to the basics I learned from him (E, D, A i.t.o), I have "perfect" dogs. My dogs all eat together, I can place my hand in any dog's bowl or pet them while they're eating, I can take ANYTHING out of their mouths. My dogs never have to be separated because they'll hurt each other, even when chewing bones. They listen to me. And they absolutely ADORE me and would protect me with their life. And we have a mutual respect that goes beyond anything I can describe. They are part of my family and I would kill for them.

Sorry this is a bit off topic, but my point is, I have been watching CM since all my dogs were puppies and raised them with his philosophy and to me, the proof is in the pudding.

Liesje

Posted : 8/19/2007 9:38:10 AM

I RARELY use any techniques I learn on the show, because I don't have to. Thanks to the basics I learned from him (E, D, A i.t.o), I have "perfect" dogs. My dogs all eat together, I can place my hand in any dog's bowl or pet them while they're eating, I can take ANYTHING out of their mouths. My dogs never have to be separated because they'll hurt each other, even when chewing bones. They listen to me. And they absolutely ADORE me and would protect me with their life. And we have a mutual respect that goes beyond anything I can describe. They are part of my family and I would kill for them.

Sorry this is a bit off topic, but my point is, I have been watching CM since all my dogs were puppies and raised them with his philosophy and to me, the proof is in the pudding.

But, like Glenda was saying, it doesn't prove that other methods are less effective or that CM is any different from any informed dog owner or trainer. My dog was raised totally by operant conditioning (NOT a method I've ever seen CM use), and she behaves as your dogs (no chewing, no destruction of the house, perfect recall, I can reach in and take food, heck my cats have taken her food while she eats, very obedient, excellent manners with strangers and other dogs). Excerise, discipline, and affection are not unique to CM and if they are his base philosophy, than like Glenda says he is really no different than most run of the mill trainers and dog owners that realize those are obvious requirements for a dog. I wouldn't really call those "methods", those are needs, physical and psychological. I look forward to see him working with puppies b/c I'd like to see him work with some dogs that haven't already escalated to such extreme behavioral problems as are typically shown on his show.

glenmar

Posted : 8/19/2007 9:48:53 AM

Hey! Hold on a sec! That's not what I was saying! Ack! Don't get me in trouble here!

Much of the issue with CM is the way he treats ADULT dogs who are often out of control because their owners were stupid and/or irresponsible and didn't bother to train them or let the dog rule the roost until the situation became dangerous. I just placed a foster who was like that. I worked with him for three months in my own gentle, not in his face, kind of way. I'm not a trainer and I don't know a whole lot about dog physchology. I just did what I do and it worked and I was able to place this boy in a nice home after our behavorialist re evaluated him. My way, that I can't even define for myself, works too, it just takes longer.

What I was saying, is with pups there won't be a need for what I see as sometimes violent establishing as the leader that is used with the adult, red zone dogs. So, perhaps with pups all of us who are not real fans will be able to find a common ground with CM. That's ALL I was trying to say. Absolutely no put downs of anyone or any method.

Angelique

Posted : 8/19/2007 10:15:08 AM

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Much of the issue with CM is the way he treats ADULT dogs who are often out of control because their owners were stupid and/or irresponsible and didn't bother to train them or let the dog rule the roost until the situation became dangerous. I just placed a foster who was like that. I worked with him for three months in my own gentle, not in his face, kind of way. I'm not a trainer and I don't know a whole lot about dog physchology. I just did what I do and it worked and I was able to place this boy in a nice home after our behavorialist re evaluated him. My way, that I can't even define for myself, works too, it just takes longer.

Good point! [

]

It's sometimes hard to specifically define the many nuances which are going on when you are working with a troubled dog.

When you are actually helping a dog day-to-day, there are many interactions (social learning combined with training) going on. I was just thinking of this yesterday concerning a young dog I'm working with. At 10 months he's very different than working with a two year old or a 10 week old puppy!

A lot of this is also about outside perception, snap judgements, and sometimes emotional reactions.

If you are "in the moment" with the dog, I think you can actually feel the connection and the progress, where someone just looking on, is missing the more intimate parts of the experience and progress as a whole.

FourIsCompany

Posted : 8/19/2007 10:17:57 AM

I totally understood what you were saying Glenda. [sm=happy.gif]

ORIGINAL: Liesje
But, ... it doesn't prove that other methods are less effective or that CM is any different from any informed dog owner or trainer.

I also agree with this. There are many established and structured "methods" out there and most of the ones that have any popularity work just fine. What I have done is pick and choose from several that I like to form my own method.

I think people will find that rarely does a person take everything CM says as gospel. I don't. I (like CM) am very intuitive in my relationships with my dogs and I take things from several sources and add my own and it kind of morphs into my own method.

Excerise, discipline, and affection are not unique to CM and if they are his base philosophy, ... he is really no different than most run of the mill trainers and dog owners that realize those are obvious requirements for a dog.

Maybe because he repeats ot over and over and it really is the basis of his philosophy and it's so simple that many can relate. But I've never heard it put so succintly as he does. And CM advocates don't consider him a "God" or omnipotent or anything. We don't (or at least I don't) discount all other methods as "Number 2 or Lower". [

]

I look forward to see him working with puppies b/c I'd like to see him work with some dogs that haven't already escalated to such extreme behavioral problems as are typically shown on his show.

Me, too! [sm=happy.gif]

glenmar

Posted : 8/19/2007 10:29:06 AM

Angelique, see, maybe that's what so turns me off the guy. Maybe he is so in the moment that what he sees and what I see are totally different. But, too, it's kind of like the folks who swear by Abady foods......it SEEMS to me to be an almost cult like following That bothers me too. Be it food or a trainer. Good heavens, I've never seen followers of any other trainer be so totally DEVOTE. Maybe I find that a little bit scarey.

Carla, I think that the discipline part of the philosophy is what concerns me most. I don't need to use any physical discipline with my dogs, and I rarely even need to correct them. I think I snarled at a couple of them last nite for sticking their noses in my face when I was sleeping in the chair, but that doesn't really count!

I'm basically a gentle person. My bark is much worse than my bite even in bad situations. Why the rescue keeps sending me these dogs is totally beyond me. I have no training to do what I do, but it does seem to work. And without so much as raising my voice.

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/19/2007 10:36:30 AM

At 10 months he's very different than working with a two year old or a 10 week old puppy!

That was the point I was trying to make. I'm wondering what age group the show will focus on and what they will consider "puppies". To me, a ten month old is not a pup, it's an adolescent. (Good thing they don't ask for the car keys, too, isn't it?) I guess we'll see. Surely espencer will be around to post the first youtube.

FourIsCompany

Posted : 8/19/2007 10:48:26 AM

ORIGINAL: glenmar
I've never seen followers of any other trainer be so totally DEVOTE.

I have. [

] And like I said, I'm not devoted.

Carla, I think that the discipline part of the philosophy is what concerns me most.

Again, I think the physical stuff is mostly with problem dogs. I don't think I've ever seen him use anything physical with his own dogs. And "discipline" to CM is the existence of rules, boundaries and limitations (another easy-to-remember phrase for his "followers" [8D] ). That's all it means. It doesn't mean punishment. That's not the context.

I think repeating the phrases he uses gives the impression of a "cult" thing. It's like jargon. It can be very off-putting. But if you had never heard of the guy and I explained his philosophy to you in my own words, you'd probably be shaking your head and agreeing with at least most of it.

I'm basically a gentle person.

Me, too. I rarely raise my voice to my dogs. Only when I get out of control. Then I feel terrible. Cesar doesn't raise his voice either. Calm, assertive beings don't need to. [

]

[sm=lol.gif]

Dog_ma

Posted : 8/19/2007 11:23:33 AM

The only thing I object to about CM is the media spin, and the inevitable fact that many viewers will rush out and try some of his riskier moves without any of his skills.

I'd guess that CM is excellent with puppies, because what he has and doesn't teach (on his show) is excellent dog communication skills. The man speaks dog. I don't care for his explanations and terminology (calm submission, etc) but take away the words and you have a man who can hear and talk to dogs. This is why he can do what he does. It isn't his techniques as such - it is his ability to negotiate in dog.

I'll be the first to admit that the Cult of Cesar bugs me, but the exercise, discipline, affection thing is sadly needed by many people. The Idiot's Guide to Owning a Dog. [And NO, I'm not calling anyone here an idiot. I'm talking about the average person with an untrained dog who would never "waste time" on a board like idog. The perfect people to reach via TV, because they're on the couch with chips and not out walking the dog.] How many dogs don't ever get walked or exercised? I think that for many American dog owners the E/D/A thing is novel and OMG magic!

lostcoyote

Posted : 8/19/2007 11:32:49 AM

i'm a hybrid

[

]

but yes, i like c.m, but i don't worship him.

my pup is coming along nicely. he will now sit down when i ask him to and i always make him sit down before ge get's his bowl of food on the floor. i wait until he has sat for 3-5 seconds, holding the sit, and thenput the food down. this is NILIF and this is precidely what ceasar does as well. he makes his dogs work for their meals (even if it is as simple as sitting down).

4ic is right. once your dogs are already well trained, there is realyl no need to pull any negative reinforcements on your dogs. the show targets problem dogs and CM's methods of rehabilitating those problem dogs. the rerun last friday showed him working with an extremely fearful dog that had been rescued from a place where the dogs were tied up with electrical wire. his initial approach was with TLC. That dog also had a phobia with the scales foir getting the dogs weight. he had to use more force to get the dog to work through his phobic response.

anyway, i do hope the new season includes a few puppies. i have not heard anything beyond the initial blog entry he made regarding puppies.