The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

**Content Removed - Personal Attack**

ORIGINAL: DPU

You are good.  You did all the research and reading in 8 minutes.  Once you eliminate the thinking that you are above or better than the average dog owner, then you will see the comments made about JQP (not here) as directed at you.  I consider myself brave in stating that I AM JQP and I have a keyboard, talk to me, lets have a dialogue.  I truly believe that I am JQP and I can represent my peers.

Now again, its the Dog Professional's show.

ORIGINAL: DPU

.....  So I ask the Dog Professional, not as an individual or an individual facility, but as a cohesive group, Does the group exist?  What is its mission?  Are there ways that the group can influence the dog owners to be "more responsible".  Its time to brag!

I'm not even sure what you consider to be a "Dog Professional" but are the websites for a couple organizations that some dog trainers belong to: [linkhttp://www.nadoi.org/]nadoi[/link], [linkhttp://www.apdt.com/]apdt[/link]
One doesn't have to belong to either of these organizations in order to teach dog training classes, and my guess, based entirely on my observations in my geographic area is that fewer than 10 % of the people that teach dog training, either as a private business, or at places like Petsmart, belong to them. But they are probably the closest you will come to an umbrella organization for "Dog Professionals", at least as the term applies to dog trainers. Incidentally, in my area, the overwhelming majority of pet owners who are enrolled in dog training classes are taught by unpaid volunteers who teach as part of their involvement in one of the two dog training clubs in this city. So, in this area at least, most dog training instructors, including myself, aren't "professionals" in the sense of actually being paid for our time or our expense in driving to classes, even though we provide most of the dog training instruction available in the area.

ORIGINAL: Dunders

 It starts with the professionals, roviding knowledge & services for love of the dog.  I include the trainers, breeders, vets and other dog professionals.

 
Dunder provided a good description.  I have been corrected by Mrv and I believe she defines a dog professional as one that accepts fees for services.
 
Are you tell me there are no national membership organization that sets professional standards, administer certifications, provide oversights, create boards of self governing bodies,  or pay lobbyists to push their agenda and causes?

It seems some threads recently are just creating conflicts that don't exist. We have threads about other threads....why the drama?

EXACTLY how I feel Liesje. I don't understand any of this. I REALLY do feel like I have a lot of knowledge to gain by reading through the training threads.. but i have learned so little for so long now because everything turns into debating and drama.


Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to come back into the training areas to try to learn. I simply do not understand how everything can be such a big deal and how a group of “dog lovers” can be so opposed on so much. The there HUGE generalizations being made here. HUGE….

  I have been following this thread for the past few days and in the beginning I was really into the discussions.. now another great thread has been turned around and there no learning going on.

  I am going back to NDR now with folks I feel I have more in common with, but I just wanted to give my [sm=2cents.gif]  here…. I feel completely frustrated with certain members of this board at times and their lack of compassion for other humans and inability to see beyond themselves.   

Hi Jjsmom06
 
It is unfortunate you feel that way.  In a forum you have many choices.  To lurk, to contribute, to influence others, to make friends, to ignore, and to walk away.  When you walk away you miss exactly what you are seeking.  Go to the Clicker thread and read the latest thread.  Very interesting topic.  When others take up my cause then there is no need for me to contribute.  There are so many other causes to help the dog.

ORIGINAL: DPU


Are you tell me there are no national membership organization that sets professional standards, administer certifications, provide oversights, create boards of self governing bodies,  or pay lobbyists to push their agenda and causes?

If you are asking if there is no single organization that encompasses veterinarians, vet techs, groomers, instructors of pet manners classes, agility instructors, competition obedience instructors, herding clinicians, search and rescued dog trainers, doggy day care providers, dog walkers, breeders.... the answer is, no there is not.

I suppose the AVMA fills that role for veterinarians. AKC, and to a much more limited extent, UKC fulfill some of those roles for those who participate in some dog sports. I already provided links to a couple organizations that fulfill a tiny bit of those roles for a very small fraction of the people offering dog training classes. But, no, there is no single body that oversees the immensely diverse group of people that make a portion of their income from dogs, and no one is required to participate in any of these organizations (except maybe vets and AVMA? Not sure about how that works).

Ok, I got some exposure to the APDT when I was searching for a specific type of trainer.  My impression from talking to members was that it is a hollow group with a lot of internal conflicts.  I ended up going with a trainer from a breakout group called the Truly Dog Friendly group.

The other group I was not aware of.  Their mission statements says

OUR MISSION today remains the same as was originally conceived: to endorse dog obedience instructors of the highest caliber; to provide continuing education and learning resources to those instructors; and to continue to promote humane, effective training methods and competent instructors.

Never have seen or heard of them in the Chicago area.  Nothing about public awareness.  Do you know exactly how they operate and what they do in order fullfill their mission statement?  Any members on this forum?
 

My grandparents had a Black Poodle and a champion Apricot Poodle (retired from breeding show dogs). They were well mannered but I don't remember how my grandparents trained them, though they were of the mindset of rubbing a dog's nose in it. I once encountered a well-trained GSD. And an ill-trained Dobie. For a while, we had a mix of  Schnauzer and Poodle. He was a runt we named Little Bit and he died of heartworms. As an adult, I rescued a femal Black Lab, literally from the streets. Because of where I lived, I had to re-home with a gentle old grandfather.
 
All through that time, there was no internet. There was also no telling how many dogs were culled or killed when they became inconvenient. Nowadays, we espouse responsibility and more complete training and realize that we have had to change. Also, there are more dogs in the world than ever before. And any genetic problems are likely in a percentage of the population. Larger population, larger incidence of problems. It's not that dogs are becoming more crazy. It's that there are more dogs present. For grits and shins, let's say that 1% of dogs will have genetically based temperment issues. 1% of 100 is 1. 1% of 1,000,000 is 10,000. And there could be a range of temperment issues to deal, as our modern ethics don't allow culling at the first sign of a temperment issue. Some dogs may never fit in well, and others may do well with some training and evironmental management.
 
In spite of our advances in dog education, there is still a vast number of people who don't even know what we know here. Couple that with puppy mills, which is big business, and the problem is only increased, rather than abated.
 
Being ignorant is a condition that I, or anyone else, can correct. The difference lies in the "want-to."
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

it's as immediately gratifying as a Snickers bar or not.

I don't need or want a Snickers bar, the candy gives me heartburn.  But tv commercials can sure change the not want.

If you are asking if there is no single organization that encompasses veterinarians, vet techs, groomers, instructors of pet manners classes, agility instructors, competition obedience instructors, herding clinicians, search and rescued dog trainers, doggy day care providers, dog walkers, breeders.... the answer is, no there is not.

 
Try IACP. [linkhttp://www.dogpro.org]www.dogpro.org[/link] - it has members of all of the above.
 
And can this please not be all about one person's problem with trainers.  It's wasting too much precious time that should be spent with our dogs.

My red pen is getting tired. Could we please keep it civil and on topic?
 
Thank you.

Try IACP. www.dogpro.org - it has members of all of the above.

IACP is no better than APDT or NADOI or any other organization for trainers - it's just different.  IACP is the organization that many people, who believe in correction,  refer others to because there is no stipulation that the training be "dog friendly", and trainers who belong to that group often use all manner of philosophies, from lure/reward to clicker to e-collars.  APDT was formed specifically to address the need for training companion dogs, and was founded by Ian Dunbar, obviously an advocate for dog-friendly positive training.  The division there came about the same way ours here did - some people believe it's ok to use punishment, some don't, and others think a little is fine.  NADOI, originally, was largely made up of instructors who were training for competitive obedience, and is the oldest of the three groups. 

I hardly think that someone who is involved in rescue is JQP exactly.  You certainly should have enough dog knowledge to be able to provide elementary skills to the dogs you foster.  When we refer to JQP here, it is generally NOT with disrespect, but rather with the understanding that a JQP individual has limited dog knowledge.  We hope that they are interested in gaining more knowledge, but sometimes, frankly, they are just people who bought a dog for the kids, aren't really interested, and would gladly give it away if Fauntleroy loses interest.  Others are doting dogmoms, but never need to know more than what size doggie dresses Fifi takes and can they afford the latest "pocket dog" carrier.  We mean no disrespect to JQP unless he is harming dogs - neglect, cruelty, and the like should never be tolerated - on a message board or anywhere else.  Granted, there are nice ways to tell someone that they should have taken the dog to the vet yesterday, but sometimes they need to hear an emphatic suggestion once they've already ignored a couple of sane posts - and if I'm the one who happens upon that thread, I don't mind informing them about the cruelty laws, or telling them they might be saving money only to lose their dog. 

If anyone has such an inferiority complex that they think they are being condescended to by people with some knowledge, the only thing I can say is that no one can make you feel inferior without your permission...

the only thing I can say is that no one can make you feel inferior without your permission

 
Amen to that.
 

ORIGINAL: buster the show dog

But, no, there is no single body that oversees the immensely diverse group of people that make a portion of their income from dogs, and no one is required to participate in any of these organizations (except maybe vets and AVMA? Not sure about how that works).

 
I guess I was expecting something along the lines like in the Accounting Profession where FASB issues statements on standards or the AICPA who through the APB issues opinions and statements.  Maybe the Training Professionals can consider this to be an area for improvements.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: buster the show dog

But, no, there is no single body that oversees the immensely diverse group of people that make a portion of their income from dogs, and no one is required to participate in any of these organizations (except maybe vets and AVMA? Not sure about how that works).

I guess I was expecting something along the lines like in the Accounting Profession where FASB issues statements on standards or the AICPA who through the APB issues opinions and statements.  Maybe the Training Professionals can consider this to be an area for improvements.

You have really been hitting the nail on the head with a lot of your posts. []

Unfortunately, accounting is fairly clear and straight forward and only ventures into the emotional realm when you are dealing with someone else's money. I was the head trainer and tech writer for a financial institution for several years, so I fully understand the difference between numbers and the emotional aspects of dealing with money! I had some new employees who were good at the math and following the rules and laws, but had a very hard time dealing with the personal and emotional aspect of someone handing over their money and trusting the bank to do "right" by them.

Banking, like dog "training", is also a business which exists to make money. Here, we enter into the emotional marketing and "selling" area.

The dog "training" community has also become far too much like religion and politics in taking the various "belief" systems into the extremes for emotional and external human definition and fulfillment. There are a lot of very emotional issues and territories at stake here. Pure scientific observation in the real world, success statistics (live dog vs dead dog), open mindedness, and a unitified effort to find the "truth" and do what is in the best interests of the dog and owner and the safety of society at large seems to have become secondary to the self-righteous crusade, being "right", smearing the competition at all costs, and the pursuit of the all-mighty dollar...how sad, but not surprising. [] 

Unfortunately, you are far too correct when you express your frustration with canine professionals, although there are two sides to this issue. I have also found myself frustrated at the lack of a more open minded approach to the "big" picture of the reality of life between dog and owner. But, the owner does also hold some responsibility since they chose to own a dog and be responsible for it's basic needs for survival, it's mental and physical balance and stability, and also for the safety of everyone who comes into contact with that dog...be it humans, dogs, or other pets.

Regarding the APDT and the IACP...the core believers within the APDT have become a "positive only" organization with many decent members caught in the crossfire of the fanatics.

The IACP welcomes everyone, has a strict code of ethics, and moves towards the sharing of knowledge rather than a narrow field of vision of the APDT. Often seeking to "cull" any dogs from society who do not fit their utopian ideal of dogs who need nothing but avoidance management, clickers, and super-yummy-treats to be safe members of society... [:'(]

But hey, if you are looking for a "trainer" who will put your mind at ease when it comes to putting down your dog for vague past history, genetic, psychological, hormonal, social, physiological, etc... because "positive only" click-and-treat methods alone could not help your dog - so there must be "something" wrong with the dog, look no further than a certain faction within the APDT. 
 
**The last 3 paragraphs were edited to remove Inflammatory Comments**