Correction Technique??

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Actually, I have seen CM suggest a treat reward a couple of times on the show.  I think you are letting your desire to refute what I say get in the way of reality, which is that CM himself occasionally suggests to an owner that it's ok to use food as a reward.
So, you are incorrect when you say his techniques never include that possibility.

 
Right, but he never uses them with a dominant behavior like in this case, which is the one we are talking about

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

"Rewarding" in the R+ method, "leading" in the CM method ....

So, back to CM techniques, which don't include "cookies," as he calls them.

Actually, I have seen CM suggest a treat reward a couple of times on the show.  I think you are letting your desire to refute what I say get in the way of reality, which is that CM himself occasionally suggests to an owner that it's ok to use food as a reward.

Yes, Cesar does sometimes use "cookies", very rarely and only in specific circumstances, but not to stop an over-excited dog from barking or to help owners who are dealing with "broken skin and many ripped shirts".

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Also, the idea that if you use +R you are not a leader is just pure bunk, whether you like CM's techniques or not.  I like his "no eye contact" thing, and in some cases, I use body blocking (although, admittedly, I learned it from Trish McConnell) but I don't think that means I have to follow every technique he uses as if there couldn't possibly be anything else that works.

Sad to see yet another CM discussion derailed with yet another training method debate. []

Maybe we should just stick to the original topic and discuss the use of CM's philosophies? []

When Millan has advocated cookies, does he suggest they are for the benefit of the dog or of the human?
Does he give his dogs cookies?

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

When Millan has advocated cookies, does he suggest they are for the benefit of the dog or of the human?
Does he give his dogs cookies?

He rarely uses them. Usually only as a lure with more fearful or insecure dogs, and sometimes to associate "good stuff" with fearful dogs. This is also how I use them (outside of trick training and a bit with command training). 

CM does not do trick training, as he is not a dog "trainer" in the operant conditioning sense. []

I have seen him toss food to dogs within a group of dogs, but I have never seen him really "train with treats" as a part of his basic philosophies.
 
ETA: He has also had a couple of dog trainers on his show as guests. One was a clicker trainer who taught a firehouse dog to drop and roll, and another trainer who used treats in a hide and seek game with the kids in the episode featuring the Marley and Me family.  

Why is it that any discussion of CM's techniques never includes the possibility of learning anything NEW or even considers that the situation might benefit from a logical discussion of WHETHER the technique he uses is the correct one???
Positive trainers are NOT only "trick" trainers, so the fact that CM is not a trick trainer is irrelevant to the discussion.  Your point about him not being a trainer "in the operant sense" makes no sense.  Animals learn operantly, so even a "behavior expert" or "behaviorist" or "trainer" is using operant principles, whether they realize it or not.  Even aversives act operantly. 
CM may not use treats with dominance issues, but that still doesn't mean that food-based training does not work with dominant dogs.  It can, and does.  What we are discussing is what might work with our OP's dog, not a dog that has appeared on the show. The dog in question, from the OP's description, is probably more of an anxious, obnoxious, pushy type than a true dominant type.  In order to apply ANY technique, you must first understand exactly what you are dealing with.  CM sees the dogs in person.  So, if he saw this dog, and realized it's just an attention-seeker, what would he do? 
All we have to go on is the description of the activity.  But, offering training or behavioral suggestions based on correction, when you haven't personally assessed the dog is, IMO, risky.  [sm=2cents.gif]

Another simple solution for a jumping dog - let him trail a leash.  You step on it, so he can't jump.  When he is sitting, he gets attention - patting, treats, "good boy".  When, he isn't, he gets ignored.  A dog that jumps all over you is getting rewarded for it somehow - try to figure out how.  Is someone saying "off", "down", "quit it", etc.?  Is anyone touching him when he jumps (can feel like patting, or an invitation to play).  Is anyone shoving him off?  That can be interpreted as aggression or invitation to play.  All family members must be on the same page with ignoring the behavior, or the protocol for redirection, or the dog won't stop.  Dogs do what works for them, so if he's getting anything he wants in exchange for that behavior, even negative attention, it will continue.

Here I go, probably completely off-topic and probably going to express a "duh" moment.

But -R only stops a behavior. +R teaches a change in behavior.
That's why I never see anything new going on with Cesar. He uses the same technique for stuff because he only wants to stop the behavior. At least from the shows I've seen. He's not teaching the dog a new behavior or how to change the behavior from the old, unwanted behavior. He's only stopping a behavior. That's why he can say "I'm not a trainer". To me, trainers teach the dog behaviors by changing old ones, by redirecting or teaching a dog to look to them for the next command or answer. There's no teaching new by simply just stopping a behavior. It's like telling a child to shut up when you don't want him talking out of turn. The child shuts up, for whatever reason (probably fear of some negative consequence). How is that going to teach the child WHY he shouldn't talk at certain times, and when TO talk?

Sorry, in two of the classes I'm taking this semester, we have learned a lot about operant conditioning. Sure, my classes deal with children and not dogs, but the techniques are applicable with dogs.

I told you all I'd have a "duh" moment and a "I've seen the light" moment.


Carry on...

Another simple solution for a jumping dog - let him trail a leash. You step on it, so he can't jump. When he is sitting, he gets attention - patting, treats, "good boy". When, he isn't, he gets ignored. A dog that jumps all over you is getting rewarded for it somehow - try to figure out how. Is someone saying "off", "down", "quit it", etc.? Is anyone touching him when he jumps (can feel like patting, or an invitation to play). Is anyone shoving him off? That can be interpreted as aggression or invitation to play. All family members must be on the same page with ignoring the behavior, or the protocol for redirection, or the dog won't stop. Dogs do what works for them, so if he's getting anything he wants in exchange for that behavior, even negative attention, it will continue.

 
This is safe, educated advice.  Start here!
 
It takes tons of experience to correct a dog safely, so why not start with a more positive method, and if you are having trouble getting it, find an EDUCATED professional to teach you.

This area is for discussing CM's philosophies. He works off of a social learning principle.
 
This thread has been completely derailed if favor of another operant conditioning  and training method debate.
 
To understand CM's philosophies one needs to stop thinking in strictly operant conditioning terms.
 
Please respect this section, it's rules, and those who want to discuss this philosophy and understand it without confusion.
 
Opening a debate thread elsewhere, might be a good idea. This constant disruption is really getting old. [] 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: chewbecca
That's why I never see anything new going on with Cesar. He uses the same technique for stuff because he only wants to stop the behavior. At least from the shows I've seen. He's not teaching the dog a new behavior or how to change the behavior from the old, unwanted behavior. He's only stopping a behavior.

Actually, in addition to the overt and obvious ways that he teaches boundaries and limitations, Millan establishes himself as the one in the room to pay attention to, the one to look to for what to do. He teaches the dog to pay attention, and to follow his lead. You could say that's akin to teaching incompatible behaviors, except he's not teaching discrete *behaviors* so much as persistent mindset. By learning to carry ourselves in a way that's convincing, we are our best tool to guide our dog. Always, not just when the tools and treats are out, but always.

When dog and human are in the room with Millan, they are very busy making themselves open and receptive to learn from him, to recieve from him. One of the interesting things about a strong leader is that s/he respects followership greatly, and will give it happily when appropriate. I love the Calm Submissive section in Cesar's Way, when he talks about how he learned to yeild to his wife, to be calm submissive to her. Very humbling wisdom from such a "macho" guy.

I think, to look at tools and treats through Millan's filter, is to see them as tools to help the human focus on the tasks at hand without being emotional. If we are doing routines with treats, we are calmly focused on getting that right, rather than being frustrated with our dog. That's good for the dog. If the slip lead gives us confidence when walking, we're practicing a non emotional leadership on the walk rather than worrying and projecting anxiety. That's good for the dog. I think that in Cesarese, the worst thing we can do is project our emotional cesspools on our dogs, so getting control of that is job #1.

Somedays, after work, I am just tired. I haven't integrated calm assertive into my being enough to just wear it without effort. I'm messier than that (though cleaning that up is a personal goal). So, sometimes, in addition to our regular c/t sessions, I'll do extra ones, geared at maintaining my role with my dog. I need her to think I'm always reliable, always steady at the helm. It's cheating, it's "fake it till you make it". But, I give myself that to stay on course, it's all part of a larger vision. And, hey, I'm new at all this!

Millan and related leadership styles appeal to people who are interested in sharing direct relationships with dogs, relationships that are full of subtleties of glances, energies, gestures, and movements, IMNSHO. So much of Cesarese is "energy", the human leader is *the* tool. People who are receptive to Millan could watch the video espencer posted several times, and see something new each time. It is subtle and rich. That's one of the reasons some of us Cesareenies like it. But, then, like Millan himself, many of us are more satisfied communing with trees and earth and animals than humans, anyway.

I wonder what the OP is making of all this! [] tdlabrie ... have you tried any of these suggestions? Have any of them felt right for you? Have we been guessing well? []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Why is it that any discussion of CM's techniques never includes the possibility of learning anything NEW or even considers that the situation might benefit from a logical discussion of WHETHER the technique he uses is the correct one???

Because this is the CM forum [], its like asking for soccer tips on a swimming forum, both are sports but two different things at the same time

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Animals learn operantly, so even a "behavior expert" or "behaviorist" or "trainer" is using operant principles, whether they realize it or not.  Even aversives act operantly. 

Yes they do BUT as actually YOU always say, there is not only one way. Probably you should read the new rules that were updated today:
[linkay>http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=331215]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=331215[/link] ay attention to the part that says "constant sidetracking the topic with training method debates"

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
CM may not use treats with dominance issues, but that still doesn't mean that food-based training does not work with dominant dogs. 

It can work but that does not stop the dog from being dominant, you are only a "provider" but he is still the leader, the dominant "attitude" will still coming out

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
So, if he saw this dog, and realized it's just an attention-seeker, what would he do? 

The same that he did in the video, he has other techniques but the corrections will work in both of this specific cases, take a look
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeAukCAQyE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeAukCAQyE[/link]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Is anyone shoving him off? That can be interpreted as aggression or invitation to play. 

Nobody needs to be "shoving off" any dog, it wont be interpreted as aggression because the owner is calm or an invitation to play because a correction is not an invitation for that (if you know what you are doing)

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

But -R only stops a behavior. +R teaches a change in behavior.

Exactly, stops the behavior AND the dog will learn not to do it again in that situation, the only difference is that you are not telling the dog what to do instead which is not bad at all, like i said before, if a dog is jumping on a guest and you correct that then the dog can do whatever else he wants, just not THAT, he can watch, walk away, sit, drink a margarita, it does not matter, with the +R you need to tell the dog what to do instead (double work and more time IMO)

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

There's no teaching new by simply just stopping a behavior.

Its not imperative that the dog MUST do something instead and that YOU have to tell him what that should be, some people complain that they dont want their dogs to be robots, well thats more robotic that anything else IMO 

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

How is that going to teach the child WHY he shouldn't talk at certain times, and when TO talk?

Well the child (or dog) is not a robot, you dont need to press a key to make it talk again, the child (or dog) will learn in which situations the behavior is allowed and which ones is not, if we correct the jumping of a dog when a guest is home then the dog knows "ok guests in house= correction =not jumping" if we dont correct jumping during play time then is "ok jumping outside during play time = no correction = its ok"

Which kid stopped talking forever just because the parents told him to shut up sometimes? the kid just knew in wich situations should do it and which should not, did it work? of course it did, should the parents needed to tell him what to do instead? probably not, was the kid like "ok i will be quiet now but i need you to tell me what should i do instead"?

ORIGINAL: espencer

Its not imperative that the dog MUST do something instead and that YOU have to tell him what that should be, some people complain that they dont want their dogs to be robots, well thats more robotic that anything else IMO

I'm interested in what you're saying []. So, if the dog's in a calm submissive mindset, his choices are going to be reliable and acceptable - is that the idea?

ups double post []

I was thinking about this whole greeting ritual in dogs and wolves. Every respected member of a canine family upon a return to a den must let his pack mates sniff his face. This tells other dogs where you've been, what you did, what you ate, etc. It's like us telling each other verbally how our day went... Our faces are too high up, so this genetically programed behavior becomes a total nuisance (for humans).
I used to follow this protocol where upon a return home, I'd ignore the dog. (I had to, because when he was a pup, he had submissive urination during greetings.) Fair enough, he learned not to jump on me, BUT, he'd follow me around restlessly like a sticky tape until I set down or let him get closer - then, he'd take a good sniff, a lick, and go on with his business. So although he wasn't jumping, he just HAD to do this doggy thing and get close to my face, even if it was 20 minutes after my return. Why shouldn't we let them sniff us? If we let them do it, for one - we'll satisfy their need as a dog, two, we are practicing a leader-follower relationship in which the sniffing is done on MY terms, and three, we'll have a fair say 20 seconds into the greeting - "That's enough now!". Both parties win and there is no persistent need to follow you around. (I realize this behavior is also breed-specific...)
The way it works for us now is that I come in, put my bags down. He has to be calm while waiting for me (you can even ask him to SIT while waiting). I bend down, give him my cheek, cringe my face, and let him do his holy ritual; get up, and we are done.
If the dog jumps, bend down with your arm stretched out and your palm open so that you can block the jump. Your hand has to be still - no bending it in a playful manner and no pushing the dog, as it's not a game. If the dog races at you, turn your stare right at him and slightly move forward; this is to tell a pushy dog to watch it. The millisecond the dog moves back, relax your posture - you've made your point, turn your head to the side, letting him to his thing. When done, get up, wipe your face and go on with your day.
I'm just curious, do everyones dogs, who have been taught not to jump, follow you around until you sit down? Or, is it just mine?

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

So, if the dog's in a calm submissive mindset, his choices are going to be reliable and acceptable - is that the idea?

 
100% []

tdlabrie,

If you are having difficulties with an out of control dog which is already showing disrespect to your family physically (which is what I'm getting from your posts) I recommend finding an experienced professional to help you through the International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP). This is the organization which supports Cesars work. Here is the link:

[linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/]www.dogpro.org/[/link]

Dog boards are great places for the discussion of philosophies and the sharing of knowledge and basic principles. Dog boards are not good places for learning hands-on disciplinary techniques. If they were, there would be no need for canine professionals. []

Actual observation and instruction should be done in person whenever a dog is becoming physical with the owners, aggressive, or out of control - in order to keep everyone safe. We are not there to observe and help in person, which is what you need.

We can help you understand CM's philosophies. We can help you work on your leadership skills, we can share our personal experiences with you, but once you move into the physical contact interaction zone...
 
Please do not attempt these techniques without consulting a professional! []