Correction Technique??

Angelique wrote an awesome post on this in another thread:

post #30 on page 2 of the "mastering the dominance ritual" thread:
http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=322431&mpage=2

See how that gets you started .... []

ETA: that thread also offers the difference between "dominance ritual" and "alpha roll"

The more important question might be whether you know when correction is appropriate, rather than what correction.  As a trainer, I am loathe to use correction, and more inclined to figure out why the dog is not understanding or complying with my request.  I'd rather go back and find a training solution that works for the dog than keep correcting.  It's funny, but I usually ask people who correct their dogs whether the dog keeps repeating the unwanted behavior.  (The definition of punsihment or correction is that it stops a behavior from happening.) If he does, the correction clearly doesn't work & it's time to think outside the box for a better solution.  It might be more beneficial for us to hear what behavior you are having trouble with, so we can offer suggestions on how to deal with it.  Using techniques that you see on a TV show can get you into trouble sometimes, which is why the show posts the disclaimer.

Thanks, Ixas_girl.  I've read your thread top to bottom quite a number of times, but I forgot that one post.
 
Spiritdogs, there are only two situations I want to correct.  The first is that Max barks when he wants attention, or when somebody comes to the house.  Now, mind you, I want him to do that.  I'm just not able to stop him once he gets started.  The second situation is that he sometimes gets very excited, such as when my wife and I return home after being gone a while, and he will jump on us, bark and nip.  It's not an aggression thing, he's just really happy to see us; in fact, he doesn't do this with many others, one granddaughter who visits often is all.  I have "ignored, ignored, ignored", but he is 65 pounds and I am tired of broken skin and many ripped shirts.  My wife wants me to squirt Max with a squirtgun, and I know he doesn't like that, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
 
Thus, I thought one of these techniques may work better to get the point across.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

I'm confused about what correction technique to use, and when.  There's the "dominance ritual" (aka Alpha roll), the "neck nip" (with a C-shaped hand), the "chtt" sound, and the "look", and probably others.  Sorry if I'm being vague here, I don't know all the terms, but I hope you know what I mean.

So, which one to use for what?  Thanks in advance.

 
I'd first start by establishing yourself as the trusted leader (in your dog's eyes) within the relationship.
 
This is primarily done through the "energy" you project about who you are and is not based on what you do to the dog, but rather by the dog seeing you as "leadership material". First things first. [] 
 
Leaders act like leaders. They project this through their attitude, posture, facial expressions, vocal tones, movement, body positioning, decision making, calmness, assertiveness, and are beings of action rather than reaction, IMO.
 
I do not recommend (especially on a dog board) the establishment of leadership through a lot of physical confrontation. Too much physical confrontation can also be viewed as weakness, instability, or even as a challenge if the dog does not already view you as their leader.
 
That said, I would concentrate on the use of boundary setting via a verbal "hey", eye contact, body blocking, and gain a feel for mastering "the walk" using various leash techniques to communicate boundaries, contain, redirect, or control the dog long before applying the Millan Vulcan neck pinch. []
 
(gotta go, be back later) []
 
 

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Thanks, Ixas_girl.  I've read your thread top to bottom quite a number of times, but I forgot that one post.

Spiritdogs, there are only two situations I want to correct.  The first is that Max barks when he wants attention, or when somebody comes to the house.  Now, mind you, I want him to do that.  I'm just not able to stop him once he gets started.  The second situation is that he sometimes gets very excited, such as when my wife and I return home after being gone a while, and he will jump on us, bark and nip.  It's not an aggression thing, he's just really happy to see us; in fact, he doesn't do this with many others, one granddaughter who visits often is all.  I have "ignored, ignored, ignored", but he is 65 pounds and I am tired of broken skin and many ripped shirts.  My wife wants me to squirt Max with a squirtgun, and I know he doesn't like that, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Thus, I thought one of these techniques may work better to get the point across.

 
CM would do this to help you with both problems:
 
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw[/link]

espencer! You are the quick and sure regent of all things video!

Ok, so Millan used "calm assertive" human (leader) energy, and body blocking. The guest (his wife) used "no touch, no talk, no eye contact."

The limits and boundaries that Millan sets for the dog, keep him from getting his energy "up", so he doesn't escalate to charging/barking/jumping. It illustrates a bunch of what Angelique described.

What else was in the video worth noting?

Spiritdogs, there are only two situations I want to correct. The first is that Max barks when he wants attention, or when somebody comes to the house. Now, mind you, I want him to do that. I'm just not able to stop him once he gets started. The second situation is that he sometimes gets very excited, such as when my wife and I return home after being gone a while, and he will jump on us, bark and nip. It's not an aggression thing, he's just really happy to see us; in fact, he doesn't do this with many others, one granddaughter who visits often is all. I have "ignored, ignored, ignored", but he is 65 pounds and I am tired of broken skin and many ripped shirts. My wife wants me to squirt Max with a squirtgun, and I know he doesn't like that, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Attention seeking by barking is usually reinforced when you try to make noise, or correct.  Instead, ignore the barking and leave the area - what you are doing is simply removing his reward (you).  This is "no touch, no talk, no eye contact".  CM certainly didn't invent that, but it works in many situations, and is a valid method in this circumstance.  Expect the dog to bark longer and louder for a bit.  After all, you were probably inadvertantly rewarding his attention-seeking barks by saying "quiet", or even "shut up" [].  He "gotcha" all those other times.  But, hopefully, now, he will suffer an "extinction burst" (google the phrase) and then the barking should subside.
As to alarm barking (the kind you do want, when the burglar is on his way in), you can decide how many warning barks are appropriate, then call your dog.  He eventually learns: bark three times and go get mom.  That really helps when you want to get out of the house (with the burglar in it) and take your dog out the back door, too, as you are dialing 9-1-1. []  To get a really good recall, I suggest using "Really Reliable Recall", DVD by Leslie Nelson (available online at Tawzer Dog Videos).

HTH

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Attention seeking by barking is usually reinforced when you try to make noise, or correct.  

 
Thats if the dog is masoquist [], the video shows CM correcting the behavior and the dog knew right away that he needed to stop, he corrected and the dog stopped, i dont really get that idea of  "if you correct that is like giving the attention he asks" i have never met a masoquist dog before
 
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

CM certainly didn't invent that

 
Dont worry Anne, no body said he did []

Your dog sounds like mine, here is what we did solve these things.

Spiritdogs, there are only two situations I want to correct. The first is that Max barks when he wants attention,

 

Absolutely, positively IGNORE!!  Do not speak, touch or make eye contact.  Just walk through him and past him, if he jumps turn your back and walk the other way.  IGNORE, it will stop this behavior.  You will get an extinction burst, after 3 days I did and then he learned quickly to settle down.  If you dog stops the behavior while your ignoring and lays down or goes into another room leaving you alone – then go to him and reward – treat, petting and thata boys!!  They learn very quickly that being quite and calm gets them the attention they are seeking and that being obnoixious does not.

or when somebody comes to the house. Now, mind you, I want him to do that. I'm just not able to stop him once he gets started

Spiritdogs idea a great one, call him to you and have him sit and pet, treat and change his focus.  I actually taught my dog "go to his crate” with positive training, treats and happiness in the crate.  If I say let's "kennel up” he makes a mad dash to his crate!!![]  You may be able to teach this technique and once guest arrive say kennel up or crate and when he goes there treat.  Once he is settled down allow him to come out and visit.  Don't be afraid to tell you guest to IGNORE too, I do all the time.  It is hard for guests, they always have to say something or touch them but if they turn (not to get jumped on) and ignore it works beautifully!!

The second situation is that he sometimes gets very excited, such as when my wife and I return home after being gone a while, and he will jump on us, bark and nip. It's not an aggression thing, he's just really happy to see us; in fact, he doesn't do this with many others, one granddaughter who visits often is all. I have "ignored, ignored, ignored", but he is 65 pounds and I am tired of broken skin and many ripped shirts. My wife wants me to squirt Max with a squirtgun, and I know he doesn't like that, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

My dog is 150 pounds and like to jump too, so I know how it feels.  Ignoring does work!!  You are doing something wrong, or your wife is doing something (without realizing it) that is rewarding the dog.  Don't look, don't touch and don't speak – don't say NO, don't push him down, that is attention to him.  When he goes to jump, turn you back and walk away – go into another room and close the door in his face if you have to.  If you walk and he continues it again, turn around again and don't speak, don't touch and don't look at him.  Turning your back on jumping dog works, you may get a couple of scratches at first but once they realize they can't get your attention why would they bother.  Read Jan Fennell the dog listener.  Good luck, it doesn't change in one day, or two days but by the third day it decreases and gets better and better.  The extinction burst is real, so expect it.  Remember, don't look, don't touch and don't speak and turn your back and walk away.

I have to agree with Spiritdogs and luvmyswissy on this one.  It seems like a habit has been developed and that's going to make it harder to extinguish-but ignoring the behavior, or redirecting the dog into a different (desired) behavior would probably work better than using corrective techniques.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

You are doing something wrong, or your wife is doing something (without realizing it) that is rewarding the dog.

"Rewarding" in the R+ method, "leading" in the CM method ....

So, back to CM techniques, which don't include "cookies," as he calls them.

Here's my guess:
tdlabrie and wife are happy to see the dog as well, and give mixed signals to the dog about what an appropriate greeting ritual is. They ask him to behave, yet they (and the granddaughter) exude excited energy. By sending excited energy to the dog they get excited energy back, which is why their ignoring didn't work. They led the dog to be excited, even though they thought they were saying the opposite. The dog believes the excited energy more than he believes actions/corrections that ask for calm.

Ignoring is not the complete answer, how you ignore is. If the humans are clear about sending calm assertive energy, rather than an active excited (including frustration or anger), the dog will follow suit, whether or not "cookies" are given.

On barking:
When my dog barks, I always see what she's barking about, every single time. If there's something there, I thank her. If it's nothing, I ignore her and turn my head with the idea "that was a waste of time". She gets it; she quickly learned to only bark long enough to get my attention, now she trusts me to handle it. ... I'm not sure how well that fits in Cesarese, but I think pretty well, since the dog is communicating with the owner (leader), then backing off to let leader handle it.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Max barks when he wants attention

There needs to be a shift in thinking to understand the difference between dog psychology and human psychology.

Once I understood the importance of the position the humans hold within the relationship with the dog, I was able to "get it".

If you are not seen as the dog's leader by the dog, then yes, if they demand attention and you give it - you are in the follower position. This goes beyond the human concept of "any attention is better than no attention". 

In a dog's mind, followers to not discipline leaders. So if the dog sees you as a follower, you are wasting your disciplinary actions until the relationship dynamics change. IMO

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

I'm just not able to stop him once he gets started.

The dog has already escalated, is in a state of excitement, and why should they listen to a follower's discipline?

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

The second situation is that he sometimes gets very excited, such as when my wife and I return home after being gone a while, and he will jump on us, bark and nip. 

By this behavior, your dog is indicating he is in the leadership position. "Dominant" behavior often occurs simply because the dog feels free to behave this way. Leaders do what they want.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

It's not an aggression thing, he's just really happy to see us; in fact, he doesn't do this with many others, one granddaughter who visits often is all.

This is because the dog only does this to those who he has already established a leader/follower relationship with. He has not established himself as a leader over someone he doesn't know, yet.

But keep in mind, the dog may eventually see all humans as natural followers, and will feel free to do this with all humans. The fact that he does not do this with strangers, is actually a good sign that he has not gone this far in his view of all humans, yet.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

I have "ignored, ignored, ignored", but he is 65 pounds and I am tired of broken skin and many ripped shirts.

Cesar does recommend ignoring, but only to a point. Leaders ignore some minor infractions of their followers because they are leaders.

Leaders also address rude and pushy behaviors from their followers which they do not approve of. But this dog is escalating and ignoring clearly is not working. A leader would not put up with this behavior. And, all humans within the household must be viewed as leaders in order for their disciplinary actions to be recognised and complied with.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

My wife wants me to squirt Max with a squirtgun, and I know he doesn't like that, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Me either. Even if it gets the dog to stop this specific behavior, it won't help establish leadership or change the current pack dynamics. The dog will still act "dominant" in other ways unless they become "subordinant" to the humans.

Until the dynamic of the relationship changes between the dog and everyone within the household, the inappropriate behaviors will come out in other ways and escalate until you are no longer dealing with just a "bratty" teenager, but a grown adult dog who is ready to really assert themselves and will be much harder to deal with around age two.

I'm glad you're deciding to work on this now. All of the humans within the household and visiting guests must work together to help turn this around.

I would recommend starting with a daily walk following Cesar's protocols and work on getting this dog to see you all as leaders by how you behave and interact with this dog.

Read Cesar's book "Cesar's Way", watch the show in order to study his body language, attitude, and listen carefully to what he says to the owners. The "Cesareenies" who participate in this area of the forum will also help as much as we can with some more specific steps.

All I'm really doing in this post is helping you get started through an understanding of how important the position you hold within the relationship with this dog is, and how it affects all aspects of living with your dog as a member of your family.

[]

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

You are doing something wrong, or your wife is doing something (without realizing it) that is rewarding the dog.

"Rewarding" in the R+ method, "leading" in the CM method ....

So, back to CM techniques

Yes indeed! []

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Here's my guess:
tdlabrie and wife are happy to see the dog as well, and give mixed signals to the dog about what an appropriate greeting ritual is. They ask him to behave, yet they (and the granddaughter) exude excited energy. By sending excited energy to the dog they get excited energy back, which is why their ignoring didn't work. They led the dog to be excited, even though they thought they were saying the opposite. The dog believes the excited energy more than he believes actions/corrections that ask for calm.

Ignoring is not the complete answer, how you ignore is. If the humans are clear about sending calm assertive energy, rather than an active excited (including frustration or anger), the dog will follow suit, whether or not "cookies" are given.

On barking:
When my dog barks, I always see what she's barking about, every single time. If there's something there, I thank her. If it's nothing, I ignore her and turn my head with the idea "that was a waste of time". She gets it; she quickly learned to only bark long enough to get my attention, now she trusts me to handle it. ... I'm not sure how well that fits in Cesarese, but I think pretty well, since the dog is communicating with the owner (leader), then backing off to let leader handle it.

Great post, and a very good explaination! []

"Rewarding" in the R+ method, "leading" in the CM method ....

So, back to CM techniques, which don't include "cookies," as he calls them.

Actually, I have seen CM suggest a treat reward a couple of times on the show.  I think you are letting your desire to refute what I say get in the way of reality, which is that CM himself occasionally suggests to an owner that it's ok to use food as a reward.
So, you are incorrect when you say his techniques never include that possibility.

Also, the idea that if you use +R you are not a leader is just pure bunk, whether you like CM's techniques or not.  I like his "no eye contact" thing, and in some cases, I use body blocking (although, admittedly, I learned it from Trish McConnell) but I don't think that means I have to follow every technique he uses as if there couldn't possibly be anything else that works.