Accidentally “Mastered the Walk” for 15 minutes

Reminder! This thread is about our state of mind, what that elusive quality is IN US!! The focus is on the human!!


This is not a thread on assessing reactivity or fear aggression in dogs. Please keep all contributions within the spirit of the thread, and move discussions of other topics to the appropriate threads.

State of mind, calm energy, leadership quality ... these are quiet and subtle forces. If we have a shouting panel about reactivity and aggression, or doubting rifts about science, the quality of mind we began discussing here, will vanish. *poof*

Thank you for your condsideration.

Liesje,
 
What you are describing sounds like a full blown "extinction burst". This topic and how various training methods could be used would make a very good conversation in the general discussion area. []
 
This behavior is what Cesar usually refers to as "temper tantrums".
 
I have witnessed this in dogs, humans, and horses. I was going to draw some parallels using spoiled kids as an example, but in the spirit of keeping this thread on topic, I found a very good link which covers this for all to read. []
 
[linkhttp://www.canineuniversity.com/articles/training/train_31.html]http://www.canineuniversity.com/articles/training/train_31.html[/link]
 
Please stay safe when dealing with this big guy! []
 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
This thread is about our state of mind, what that elusive quality is IN US!!

State of mind, calm energy, leadership quality ... these are quiet and subtle forces.

Yes, to me this is very much about connecting and communicating with the dog on a zen level of "energy". And, I do feel it when this connection is achieved.

I enjoyed reading JM's observation of the man with the GSD, too. Sometimes it's good to watch other people and their dogs because we are not in the midst of the moment and projecting our own emotions into what's going on.

It's fascinating (to me) to observe owners interacting with their dogs. Every once in awhile you can see a connection and union, kind of like a beautiful dance between to partners moving in harmony with each other. []

ETA: I really do believe this comes from a leadership energy which is complimented with a follower energy. There is no conflict or confusion as the two move forward, united, and together.

Reminder! This thread is about our state of mind, what that elusive quality is IN US!! The focus is on the human!!


This is not a thread on assessing reactivity or fear aggression in dogs. Please keep all contributions within the spirit of the thread, and move discussions of other topics to the appropriate threads.

State of mind, calm energy, leadership quality ... these are quiet and subtle forces. If we have a shouting panel about reactivity and aggression, or doubting rifts about science, the quality of mind we began discussing here, will vanish. *poof*

Thank you for your condsideration.

Indeed.  I don't want to derail this thread any farther.  Tomorrow Charlie and I will try a walk again, hopefully this time without the outburst, but retaining his near-perfect behavior afterward.  I don't think he's aggressive, dangerous, or leash reaction, just posting an example that came to mind reading the OP.  I'm an overly cautious person, so if I feel OK after such an event, he can't be THAT bad! []

In the spirit of the thread, I have a question, mostly to Ixa's Girl - are there any patterns as far as when Ixa and you seem "on" or "off"?  I'm wondering because I was watching CM and he was telling people to think of situations that made them feel calm or powerful and then pretend to be in that situation while walking.  They get the right attitude and it transfers down the leash into the dog as "calm submission".

What seems to work for me is not really a situation, but a thing, I wear these leather gloves and it's like they give me the POWAH!!  It's rather stupid, really, but I just realized it today.  I *think* it goes back to being bit by a rottie as a kid, and always having a small fear of dog's mouths.  I've always shyed away from dogs that are nippy or snappy, even a little bit.  I used to not like giving a dog a treat by hand, or taking a toy from its mouth (even if he was going to release it into my hand).  I first got these gloves because it was friggin cold, but then I realized that they helped me get over the fear of my hands being within 5 feet of a dog's mouth all the time.  Now, I wear them all the time at the kennel, except when working with Buttercup b/c she tries to pull them off and bury them (see other thread).  But anyway, my gloves are what empowers me to be more assertive and more committed when I act and react.

I wasn't wearing gloves yesterday, hmmm.... 

You know....I am actually starting to "get it"....especially the glancing part.

I am always glancing at Zeus. Checking on him... Is he too hot, thirsty, cold,  comfortable, uncomfortable, hungry, tired, not tired enough, does he want in, does he want out...and blah blah blah blah blah...geesh, I probably make him a nervous wreck.

He has to be thinking...oh dear gawwwd something is wrong  somewhere...it has to be.
Why else would she be looking at me every second.

I don't ever remember being like this toward him.   It's because of his age, I think.

Anyway, during his walk and drive today...it was all about me.....what I wanted.  He got his sniff time and run time...but I actually saw and felt...that he preferred to defer to me.

He doesn't want to make grande decisions...not if he can help it...it is much easier on the old guy if I do it for him. That's why I think he likes the SO so much. The SO does not require him to make decisions that he is uncomfortable with making.

Geesh...it is all so simple when you do finally grasp it. I am totally thinking that maybe I've got the dog-zen thing going on now.

Am I off topic?  If so...sorry.  But the OP's attitude, and where she is going with it, is where I need to be also.

He doesn't want to make grande decisions...not if he can help it...it is much easier on the old guy if I do it for him.

I think this is key.  It's something I learned only pretty recently and ever since I've learned it, I've adjusted my behavior and body language and have had instant results.

I'm basically embarassed of how I used to walk.  I don't get it right all the time now, not even close, but the difference is I understand my place and I understand their place and that just like children, what they think they want is most often not what they really need.

Does this hit a chord with anyone?

 
Very much so... I can completely relate to your description of "emptying out the emotion" and pretending your just carrying a bag or something.... also, walking purposefully, like you have to catch the post, that's one I used to "get my mind straight". 
 
I think those mind tricks you can play on yourself just help to calm the dog.  If you have a reactive dog, you often leave the house in a state of tension, to a greater or lesser degree and that has just got to have an effect on the dog IMO.  I don't mind where the dogs walk, provided there's no pulling or tangling up round each other or my legs, I just want them to walk calmly and politely.

You know what I think it is akin to?

Like a child who also  has to be the parent due to some dysfunction of the family dynamics.  It's like that. Now we all know that children are not capable of making adult decisions. Be it mentally or emotionally. (do notice the emphasis on emotionally)

We are not allowing our dogs to be dogs...we want them to be able to make human decisions.

Ack!  Another aha moment!

ORIGINAL: Liesje

He doesn't want to make grande decisions...not if he can help it...it is much easier on the old guy if I do it for him.

I think this is key.  It's something I learned only pretty recently and ever since I've learned it, I've adjusted my behavior and body language and have had instant results.

I'm basically embarassed of how I used to walk.  I don't get it right all the time now, not even close, but the difference is I understand my place and I understand their place and that just like children, what they think they want is most often not what they really need.

Yes, that unspeakable sense, that knowing and being ... in the right place ... something clicks ...
Liesje: I guess whatever I did worked.
JM: that dog cared absolutely zilch about Zeus until he saw his owner react
jenhuedepohl: we just clicked and flowed over those fences like water. It was amazing!
TinaK: it was this state of relaxation, awareness, indifference... something like that. AND, I wasn't aware of how am I supposed to be doing it.
Angelique: I think it's this "something" which exists on a more primal and natural level, which humans may have lost a bit along the way with all of our laboratory "science" and over annalizations.
Ixas: I had no doubts, no questions, no reactivity of my own. Pure equanimity. Very zen.
Trevell: became one with the universe for that brief 15 minutes of eternity
and my favorite, TinaK: OK, I have no idea what I am talking about now.

... our efforts at sharing these undescribe-able states are often tender or quiet, and can leave us feeling exposed, or vulnerable ... and there's so much beauty in that. I hope to read more of these engaging descriptions!!

Tools/methods:
Ixas: I did not need her to do anything, I was not relying on her to behave … she was … just a purse.
spiritdogs: mentally able to maintain a demeanor of confidence
espencer: I personally LOVE hands free walking, (thanks for the video link, I love watching that one)
Angelique: a "feel" which is gained when one learns "dogmanship"
Liesje: [CM] was telling people to think of situations that made them feel calm or powerful and then pretend to be in that situation while walking. They get the right attitude and it transfers down the leash into the dog as "calm submission".
Liesje: I wear these leather gloves and it's like they give me the POWAH!!
Liesje: I've adjusted my behavior and body language and have had instant results.
Chuffy: walking purposefully, like you have to catch the post, that's one I used to "get my mind straight".

The projecting of emotions:
JM: Is he too hot, thirsty, cold, comfortable, uncomfortable, hungry, tired, not tired enough, does he want in, does he want out...and blah blah blah blah blah...geesh, I probably make him a nervous wreck.

Yes! Exactly! I send you a hug of utter recognition! By imagining Ixa as a purse, I got to experience what it felt like to *not* send her my neurotic human baggage! What a relief for her! No wonder she was happy to be at my side rather than trotting ahead to flee my mind!!

[] []

And, I'm thinking there's something to "being vulnerable" that is a prerequisite to the ineffable qualities of leadership/zen flow/unemotional mind ... There's something about embracing our ignorance, baring ourselves to sincere scrutiny, that gets us to a point in our own yeilding ... surrendering to what's really before us, beyond the theories and methods ... a submission that ties us to a moment of pure "getting it" ...

Like me laying my dog down, or Liesje hanging onto Charlie, or JM simply observing. In these moments we let ourselves fall away from "method" and surrender into that primal being or doing that just feels right ...

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I have blisters all over my palm and fingers from holding the lead so tight.

 
You should not need leather gloves [], holding the leash so tight is a tension indicator that transfers to the dog thru the leash, that can make the dog be on alert mode all the time waiting for something to happen, you just have to relax, breathe deep and play the "purse game" (practice in your back yard if you want to)

You should not need leather gloves , holding the leash so tight is a tension indicator that transfers to the dog thru the leash, that can make the dog be on alert mode all the time waiting for something to happen, you just have to relax, breathe deep and play the "purse game" (practice in your back yard if you want to)

I only got blisters because of Charlie's outburst, I've never gotten them before.  But I still like to use the gloves because ALL the dogs at the shelter pull, I don't have to worry about icky slobber when I pick up their toys, and it makes me less cautious when they are nipping at me trying to get the lead on.  What I really want is one of those traffic handles, but with the leads we use, there's nothing to clip it to.

This is exactly what I got today from Zeus.....relief.

I got to experience what it felt like to *not* send her my neurotic human baggage! What a relief for her! No wonder she was happy to be at my side rather than trotting ahead to flee my mind!!

Plus it makes you strong.   And strong you are.  Both mentally and physically.

Never doubt it for a second..

Onward soldier

ORIGINAL: Liesje

You should not need leather gloves , holding the leash so tight is a tension indicator that transfers to the dog thru the leash, that can make the dog be on alert mode all the time waiting for something to happen, you just have to relax, breathe deep and play the "purse game" (practice in your back yard if you want to)

I only got blisters because of Charlie's outburst, I've never gotten them before.  But I still like to use the gloves because ALL the dogs at the shelter pull, I don't have to worry about icky slobber when I pick up their toys, and it makes me less cautious when they are nipping at me trying to get the lead on.  What I really want is one of those traffic handles, but with the leads we use, there's nothing to clip it to.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
In the spirit of the thread, I have a question, mostly to Ixa's Girl - are there any patterns as far as when Ixa and you seem "on" or "off"? I'm wondering because I was watching CM and he was telling people to think of situations that made them feel calm or powerful and then pretend to be in that situation while walking. They get the right attitude and it transfers down the leash into the dog as "calm submission".

So far all I can describe is a kind of unemotional presentness. I've been doing what espencer mentioned, wrapping the leash around my waist. Often when I do that, the way I hold my body is more erect and sure, and I am less distracted by Ixa. That seems to help me fill, and be present in my own space.

I like the idea of your gloves as a power symbol []. That totally makes sense. How's it going with Charlie? I hope you'll be back with the latest news!

Tina, yeah, I'm with you, enlightenment can't be forced, on a cushion or in dog walking [] The "effort" is on creating the ground, the life conditions which are most rich for such enlighenment to sprout. I've always been an inconsistent meditator, perhaps Ixa is nudging me in that! There's that saying about having "it" in your hand, when you grasp at it, it vanishes. I can't "grasp" that flow with my dog, but I can make space for it, then "allow" it when it appears.

I'm back.

Charlie was gone, but his papers are still up so he probably went to an event...so I am To Be Continued...with him.

Today, since we were going to be there for a long time and it's hot and sunny out, I decided to try to ease up a bit.  I like Cesar's walking with the dog right at your side, but let's face it, when you're working with shelter dogs you cannot assume any level of consistency, so that's just not practical.  If we walked like that every dog, every time, we'd all have our arms coming out of our shoulder sockets in no time!  Also, I don't buy the notion that in order for the dog to be calm and submissive, he HAS to be walking at heel or behind the handler.  My dog will walk that way because she's a GSD - tall enough where holding her at my side is comfortable for both of us, and her not being the kind of dog that wants her nose on the ground (our beagles always want their noses on the ground).   If  I was fostering and thus walking the same dog in the same controllable environment every day, that would be one thing, but these poor guys are locked in their cells, overstimulated by people and other dogs, so we have to give them a bit of slack (literally and figuratively).

So with this in mind I chose a young lab, Lincoln, since these are usually quite a challenge.  I thought, screw it, I'm just going to focus on correcting myself and not waste all of our energy constantly correcting him and we'll see how it goes.  He was a little criss-crossy and tuggy at first, but once he worked off a bit of his energy he was an angel!  I let him have the entire lead (which is only 4 ft. long), and being a slip lead it was basically self-correcting for him.  He responded well to the tension on his neck, without me having to do any quick jerks or reset his position.  On the sidewalk, he walked at my side with the lead draping over his body.  On the grass, he got a bit more eratic since there's not a clear path, but all the sudden he just looked back at me and sat right down on the grass, waited for me to catch up, and then watched to see where he should go.  He really was asking me to make the decision and saying "OK, this is confusing up here so I'll wait and follow you."  The only trouble we had was he found a chicken bone that I had to take away, but I made him do some tricks and gave him a dog treat instead.

Without having to constantly correct the dog, I felt a lot less tired and also was able to just daydream and relax on the walk.  So I guess I learned that some dogs will self-correct as long as you have the right posture and the right energy.  Others are too high strung and will need more physical direction from the handler, but I think with a good guy like Lincoln, too much correction might just confuse him when he's very good on his own.