Episode with resource guarding greyhound

Actually, what he was showing them with his body was how to communicate the way a dog would that they want the item.  They just go in an get it.  But, since the couple was afraid of being bitten he told them to use the broom so that they could keep moving forward and not be bitten.  Eventually, they won't need the broom. 

Lori - not to be disagreeable, but do you really think so?  I mean, that dog was seriously aggressive in regards to his bone (and maybe other things) and it's hard to imagine that moving him away with the use of the broom would ever evolve into being able to reach down and picking something up.  Maybe it was just me, but that dog was scary aggressive and I can't imagine that it didn't need more work/training than just the broom example...but maybe in time, it would've worked out.

ORIGINAL: cakana

Lori - not to be disagreeable, but do you really think so?  I mean, that dog was seriously aggressive in regards to his bone (and maybe other things) and it's hard to imagine that moving him away with the use of the broom would ever evolve into being able to reach down and picking something up.  Maybe it was just me, but that dog was scary aggressive and I can't imagine that it didn't need more work/training than just the broom example...but maybe in time, it would've worked out.

 
If I recall correctly, at the end of the episode it was reported that the couple is now able to take toys from the dog without being bitten and that they have not been bitten since Cesar visited.  I think the broom was just being used as a tool/ first step in the rehab, not a permanent solution.

I think it's important to separate what he's doing and if it would work with would you use this method over another. 

The method CM uses (and I've seen other episodes with the same thing) is to imitate the way a more dominant (not sure if that's the right word) dog would take something.  And, from my understanding, that's to go ahead and move forward towards what they want, physically nudge the other dog out of the way, not afraid of the growling.  I've seen him stand right over a food bowl with one foot on either side.  It's much more effective to not use a broom or anything other than yourself but people aren't willing to risk being bitten (understandable) so he has them use something to block that from happening.
 
I can see what's he's doing.  For example, imagine two dogs playing ball with you.  One dog runs and catches the ball.  The other dogs wants the ball, so he just goes over and sort of nudges the other dog sideways while having his muzzle getting closer and closer until he just takes the ball.  The other dog just gives it to him. 

Personally, I found that after NILIF and teaching "back away" and adding things to her bowl when she does, and also holding the ends of chews has helped pretty much eliminate our problem.  In other words, once some time had passed and she finally understood her place here the food issue quickly became much less of a problem.  I'm not sure if this would be the thing to do, but if I was a trainer I would be combining a strict NILIF program along with the above things I mentioned.  But, things aren't going to change overnight with this method and that's what people are looking for. 

The broom wouldn't of been much protection for me back in Willow's day.  She would of split the broom very quickly. 

There are lots of methods some safe, some not, I even avoided the issue completely for a very long time.  But, I can see people with kids wanting a quick fix or at least a way to make themselves safe--ie broom.

The broom was used like any other piece of training equipment, and it simply becomes an extention of the person. Once the dog learns to surrender the the toy, it becomes easier and easier until the broom is no longer needed. 

I couldn't quite grasp why these people were so obsessed with taking the toy away from the dog in the first place.  Why???  Doesn't that action just strenghten resource guarding?  If they keep trying to take his toy away, the more he is guarding it and I can't blame him quite frankly! 
 
Why not also teach a "leave it" along with this and stop the problem before it starts?  Also, this dog is 13 years old and has an unsure background.  IMO, why not just leave the old dog have his stupid toy and move on! 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

IMO, why not just leave the old dog have his stupid toy and move on!

[sm=biggrin.gif]

I didn't watch this episode. Was resource guarding *the only* problem they had with the dog?

Was resource guarding *the only* problem they had with the dog?

 
If I remember correctly, yes.  My point is, why not just pick up the toy at the end of the day when they dog is not around and then make it "their" toy instead of his?  Use the toy to teach "leave it", and if necessary then go ahead with the broom idea.  I mean, he is a mean old cranky 13 yr old pooch that just wants his toy and be left in peace!
 
If this was a younger dog, then surely I'd address it more and be serious about it.  But like your sig. says.....sometimes a dog is just a dog! []    

Use the toy to teach "leave it", and if necessary then go ahead with the broom idea.

 
I agree that teaching "leave it" would be the very best idea, and once taught, you wouldn't need the broom.  Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure I could ever feel comfortable moving beyond the broom to using my hand.  Just because the dog was backing off with the broom doesn't translate to the dog backing off when you reached down to take the toy or bone.  Maybe it was never about that though and this was simply a way to get something away from the dog without getting bitten. 
 
I did enjoy watching the "dominant" dog roll over on it's back to show submissiveness while the greyhound was acting out [].

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure I could ever feel comfortable moving beyond the broom to using my hand. 

I don't blame you one bit.  And, regardless of what techniques anyone uses to try to train this don't ever make the mistake of thinking it's completely gone.  As was stated, they are dogs.  They can forget, make a mistake, etc.  One should use extreme caution in these situations.

[I couldn't quite grasp why these people were so obsessed with taking the toy away from the dog in the first place. 

Honestly, the only good reasons I see to even bother with trying to train this out is for child safety and if the dog has picked up something that could potentially be poisonous. 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

Was resource guarding *the only* problem they had with the dog?

If I remember correctly, yes.  My point is, why not just pick up the toy at the end of the day when they dog is not around and then make it "their" toy instead of his?  Use the toy to teach "leave it", and if necessary then go ahead with the broom idea.  I mean, he is a mean old cranky 13 yr old pooch that just wants his toy and be left in peace!

If this was a younger dog, then surely I'd address it more and be serious about it.  But like your sig. says.....sometimes a dog is just a dog! []    

Unfortunately, the dog that guards toys might also guard other "special stuff" and you might not know what else the dog considers special until you try to take it.  You are correct that continually threatening and taking the dog's possessions can make the guarding behavior a whole lot worse.  Even a small nip would make the dog a candidate for euthanasia at most high volume shelters.  So, even though you might think it ridiculous to train it away in such an old dog, it might save him from being PTS if his owners are killed in a plane crash or something.  Anyway, I have found that teaching the dog to "trade" for an item of higher value is the way to go.  The dog learns, through repetition, that you always have something better for him than what he already has.  So, the one time you don't, he forgives you LOL.
And, more importantly, he learns a vocabulary word, "trade" that means "please give that to me".  "Leave it" is generally reserved for asking a dog not to touch a forbidden object.  "Trade" is for things that they already have in their mouths.  They are taught differently, too. 

"Leave it" is generally reserved for asking a dog not to touch a forbidden object. "Trade" is for things that they already have in their mouths. They are taught differently, too.

Very good point Anne. 

I personally had no luck with trade as she was extremely snarly every time we tried to do it.  So, I taught her "back up" in other situations and then later after she had been on NILIF for awhile applied it to the food bowl. 
 
I can see it now, Lori's Alternative Method Dog Academy, LOL!

Actually, Susan, I agree most with you. Is it really just the owners making a big deal out of something? OTOH, the guarding could be addressed. And for the immediate solution, before you can introduce clickers and treats or whatever one's favorite way of training, the way to get the ball is to take it. I find the idea of shooing away with the broom to be a pretty light touch. If the broom gives confidence to handle the situation calmly, is it that bad? Let me be unpopular and say if you (generally) are afraid of the dog, you are out of your league. Go back to cats, cockatiels, and goldfish.
 
This is another case of CM using a soft method to deal with a problem and he's still "wrong" because he's CM and, not to be disagreeable, but it's getting old. I think the important message of his show is, regardless of what method you use, remember that you, the human, should be in charge and don't accept failure. Find a solution, that is your job, as leader.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Actually, Susan, I agree most with you. Is it really just the owners making a big deal out of something? OTOH, the guarding could be addressed. And for the immediate solution, before you can introduce clickers and treats or whatever one's favorite way of training, the way to get the ball is to take it. I find the idea of shooing away with the broom to be a pretty light touch. If the broom gives confidence to handle the situation calmly, is it that bad? Let me be unpopular and say if you (generally) are afraid of the dog, you are out of your league. Go back to cats, cockatiels, and goldfish.

This is another case of CM using a soft method to deal with a problem and he's still "wrong" because he's CM and, not to be disagreeable, but it's getting old. I think the important message of his show is, regardless of what method you use, remember that you, the human, should be in charge and don't accept failure. Find a solution, that is your job, as leader.

I'm not afraid of dogs, ron, but I still don't grab their stuff. []
Approaching a dog with a broom is a lot like approaching a human with a baseball bat (if you aren't at Fenway Park).  You may think it's soft, and it is if you don't use the bat/broom, but it is threatening.  And, frankly, it is the threat that you pose to the dog, in terms of taking away his stuff, that he is seeking to repel.  You, or you with a broom, is the same thing to the dog - you are a rawhide thief!!!
If I approach you with a fifty, and say, "Can I have your Elvis wig?", well maybe you might give it up.  [sm=elvis.gif] 
If you don't, I can always up the ante until you are satisfied with the deal.  Same for dogs.  If I want their bone, they're getting roast beef or liverwurst.  If I want their ball, they're getting a Cheerio, perhaps.  I
don't know why humans are so opposed to teaching the dog, rather than forcing the issue.  The dog still learns the desired lesson, which is to give up his possessions willingly to the human. [8|]  None of my students end up with possessive dogs when they follow this method correctly.  I just don't get why people are so reluctant, as if it will ruin their dogs to make a pact - you give me that, I'll give you this.
It doesn't ruin the dog, it creates 100 good experiences of giving up stuff, so that the one time you forget the Cheerio or the meat, the dog gives up his stuff anyway and settles for "good boy" or a pat on the noggin.  Easy.  Very easy.