A Problem with the I Collar

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I'm still trying to figure out what leadership has to do with pulling on the leash.  Dogs pull on the leash for three reasons: 1) oppositional reflex, and 2) they move faster than humans, and 3) they've been inadvertently taught by their owners that if they pull they get to go. you think a team of sled dogs thinks their musher is not their leader because they are out in front and pulling? 

Leadership has nothing to do with pulling on the leash. Leadership has to do with *position*. Regardless of what some humans might think, *rank* is still important to even domesticated dogs, and anyone who owns multiple dogs knows this. (1) In the world of dogs there are leaders and their are followers. (2) A dog that understands who the leader is and respects that...walks at the pace the leader chooses, not the other way around. (3) A team of sled dogs know they are *doing their job*, their not pulling the sled because they decided to on their own. Same as a bomb sniffing dog who walks at the side of the handler until they're told, *go to work*, then they go out front. same as a pack of dogs who follow their leader to the hunting grounds of their prey, once they get their...they do their *job*. To dogs...it's just that simple.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I appreciate your response, but I'm still puzzling over the WHY you would walk a difficult dog in group BEFORE you've established yourself as the leader?  And again, my lack of understanding could come from the fact that I'm NOT a trainer and just don't "get" why?

 
Can you quote where it says before? i cant find who said that [], it seems that you understood that even when you are not a leader you can walk your dogs in a group, is that right? i know you can do anything AFTER you've established yourself as the leader, but i dont see what it says before

If one can shift their perspective and look at this from another angle, it makes perfect sense.

Simply put, it is natural for a follower to take direction, the setting of boundaries, or discipline from their leader. It is not natural for a leader to take direction, the setting of boundaries, or discipline from a follower.

The position you hold in your dog's eyes is very important. Socially, it impacts just about all interactions. With training and teaching, it is natural for them to comply with what you want and listen to you if they see you as the leader. It's not natural for them to take instruction from a follower.

The exception to this rule (mostly with higher social mammals in the wild) where every member of the social group's voice is fairly equal is in the situations of mutual group survival. This could be a warning of danger, direction to food and water sources, hunting, and defending territory.

Unless a dog has been given free-time or has been directed to go into working mode, they can stay beside or behind me. Why? Debates, arguements, and everything but leadership aside...because I said so. []

I think there are differing ideas regarding the establishment of "leader". Many of us are not shining examples of "good leadership material", and so we spend weeks, months or years doing NILIF and other conditionaing and training programs to establish and keep the "reigns" on leadership *behaviors*.

Since dogs have keen senses of status, I imagine it takes very little time (seconds) for them to identify "good leadership material" in humans. My dog, Ixa, is very quick to either follow or dismiss individuals based on this, it's fun to watch, and gives me good insight into people we meet, *immediately*. My learning curve with Ixa has been about self mastery. My biggest successes with her come from growth in expertise and confidence, not specific tools I use.

Not so coincidently, it would appear, I've taken on Ixa and a promotion into leadership at work. (When the student is ready the teacher appears!) Now, I wish I could take her to work to help me sniff out some of our management issues!

I-Collar: my understanding is that the bulky design is merely intended to keep the slip up at the top of the dog's neck. Slips tend to slide down to the base near the shoulders, at least for beginners, so to keep the slip up near the ears the extra webbing was designed in.

And I agree, I like to have Ixa walk on either side in different contexts (I had been teaching her on the left, but it turns out that on the right is better for agility). I also tend to wrap the leash around my waist and walk hands free. []

A dog that understands who the leader is and respects that...walks at the pace the leader chooses, not the other way around.

 
absolutely not true. My pack of dogs-- the submissive lower rankers like to run off ahead of the alpha bitch. They sure don't move at the pace the leader chooses. She does "lead" as in, choose where they are going. The submissive dogs running off ahead watch her and adjust their course as needed.

you want an option for walking two dogs in I collars? it's just a dominant dog collar with a silly contraption to hold the choker up high on the dog's neck where it can inflict maximal pain.   
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/746.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm[/link]

Actually, mudpuppy, I'm just trying to figure out why you would need, not just one, but two or more?  I could almost see a trainer with a new to him dog needing a bit of "help" to establish pack order (I think that's the way it's looked at) but I don't understand wanting to walk to or more oppositional dogs who haven't learned yet at the same time?
 
See, the problem is that if I come here to say something or ask something, I get treated like I have the bubonic plague and am trying to kill everyone else too......it's very hard to learn anything new in that atmosphere.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you want an option for walking two dogs in I collars? it's just a dominant dog collar with a silly contraption to hold the choker up high on the dog's neck where it can inflict maximal pain.   
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/746.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm[/link]

Uh oh, this thread is starting to get hostile.  content removed. 

Odd, I walk several Am Staffs and French Bulldogs together I've never felt the need for one of these "training helpers"
 I guess that it might help with the single adult dog who isn't leash trained but I can't imagine "training" dogs to walk without first having the basics and I'm sure that CM also has the basics done first before attempting to walk multiples

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

A dog that understands who the leader is and respects that...walks at the pace the leader chooses, not the other way around.

absolutely not true. My pack of dogs-- the submissive lower rankers like to run off ahead of the alpha bitch. They sure don't move at the pace the leader chooses. She does "lead" as in, choose where they are going. The submissive dogs running off ahead watch her and adjust their course as needed.

"absolutely not true." IYO perhaps, but just because you think your "alpha bitch is leader doesn't mean your dogs do. They may believe she ranks higher (which is why they'll "adjust their course as needed") , but that does not necessarily make her leader.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you want an option for walking two dogs in I collars? it's just a dominant dog collar with a silly contraption to hold the choker up high on the dog's neck where it can inflict maximal pain.   
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/746.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm[/link]

 
Oh dear! I hope there is no bleeding and screaming! []
 
Sorry, when I start hearing certain inflammatory terms which carry more emotional than factual weight, it sounds more like a marketing concept than a discussion. JMO
 
 

ORIGINAL: glenmar

See, the problem is that if I come here to say something or ask something, I get treated like I have the bubonic plague and am trying to kill everyone else too......it's very hard to learn anything new in that atmosphere.

 
Hope it's not me []

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you want an option for walking two dogs in I collars? it's just a dominant dog collar with a silly contraption to hold the choker up high on the dog's neck where it can inflict maximal pain.   
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/746.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm[/link]

Holly sweet Jesus I just caught this one myself. "A dominant collar"??? "inflict maximal pain."??? Ridiculous! Have you ever even see dog shows? And just what do you walk your dogs with? 

This is confusing.  My dogs clearly see me as their leader, constantly checking back to see where I am, but I do NOT want to run and they do, so I shoo them off to run ahead and play.  So because they TAKE my direction to go play and run off, always checking back for my location, that makes me not the leader?
 
And, yeah, Jaime, I'm with you.....I can walk my brutes without any training toys.....but I was trying to understand and I guess I'm not going to this time around.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you want an option for walking two dogs in I collars? it's just a dominant dog collar with a silly contraption to hold the choker up high on the dog's neck where it can inflict maximal pain.   
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/746.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm[/link]

Oh dear! I hope there is no bleeding and screaming! []

Sorry, when I start hearing certain inflammatory terms which carry more emotional than factual weight, it sounds more like a marketing concept than a discussion. JMO

 
What??? does that mean i cant use my chef's knife and hammer to inflict even more pain anymore? []