"Separation strategy.....................

You make a good point espencer. I can speak from previous experience on this as well. I have two males beagles that are pretty much equal in size, temperment, and dominance. One of them is older and has always been very easy going with all the other dogs, but then I got this younger dog. Once the younger got older and matured, it was ON!
These are hunting/working dogs and are kenneled outside and one day they started fighting and I couldn't get them apart before the blood started to flow. I separated them (two different kennels) and since then have not been able to kennel them together. They hunt together very well with no conflicts, but once back home, they have their own space. IF they lived in the house (where supervision was tighter) I would not have separated them, but living with their pack outside, it's impossible to keep bloodshead at a minimum.
 
I have a friend that raises hunting Dach's, which are VERY strong willed and can be aggressive. She keeps all 8 of them in the home. There are males and females all intact and has such great control over them and her two Pharough Hounds too. She once said that separating two individuals is the worst thing you can do. It just makes the fighting worse because you are nuturing two "alpha's"

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

.... She once said that separating two individuals is the worst thing you can do. It just makes the fighting worse because you are nuturing two "alpha's"

That's interesting. Never thought about it that way.

.... She once said that separating two individuals is the worst thing you can do. It just makes the fighting worse because you are nuturing two "alpha's"

 
 
That is why I believe nurturing pack mentality with a packleader is so important, it doesn't guarantee every dog I run into would fit into the pack, but so far, so good.
With one small exception, during my breeding years, 2 females were at war 24/7.

While I agree with CMs sentiment in general, we all know the average owner (me included) isn't capable of safely and effectively managing dog-dog aggression, especially with large dogs.  I can't separate my 2 large dogs if they fight, so I keep them separated unless my DH is home.  If you'd have convinced me that doing so would create more problems, I might've actually chosen to rehome one of them. I'm glad I didn't and they do much better together these days than they did initially, so the theory doesn't hold water (for me).   Maybe there are some on here who would have the ability to work it out without separation, but not the average person.  I certainly don't think separation is an ideal situation, and that's why I usually suggest the poster have a behaviorist evaluate the dogs.  If the problem can't be worked out (by the average owner), then I think rehoming is the most humane thing to do.  

ORIGINAL: cakana

While I agree with CMs sentiment in general, we all know the average owner (me included) isn't capable of safely and effectively managing dog-dog aggression, especially with large dogs.  I can't separate my 2 large dogs if they fight, so I keep them separated unless my DH is home.  If you'd have convinced me that doing so would create more problems, I might've actually chosen to rehome one of them. I'm glad I didn't and they do much better together these days than they did initially, so the theory doesn't hold water (for me).   Maybe there are some on here who would have the ability to work it out without separation, but not the average person.  I certainly don't think separation is an ideal situation, and that's why I usually suggest the poster have a behaviorist evaluate the dogs.  If the problem can't be worked out (by the average owner), then I think rehoming is the most humane thing to do.  

I agree that some people can not do it themselves but like you said, thats when you need professional help, i dont think it would be humane if my mom "rehome" me if i dont get along with my brother, why it would be humane for a dog, dogs need to be rescued from shelters, not put back in them

What did you do to solve your problem? if it worked for you why not for the rest of the average owner?

What did you do to solve your problem? if it worked for you why not for the rest of the average owner?

We've done all the things normally suggested.  Met with a behaviorist, kept treats and toys put away, fed them separately, and kept them separated when we weren't home.  Our situation is different from many others though.  Our girls really like each other, but every once in awhile, something will set them off.  Removing most potential triggers helped, but there have been surprises.  In the case where the dogs don't get along at all and the fights are all the time, I think that rehoming is humane.  I don't think you can compare it to sending one of your human children away.  Sassy was a rescue from the shelter and I'm pretty sure she doesn't mourn the family she had before and is very happy with us.  If I had no choice but to rehome her, and I'd only do that if I found a good, loving home for her, I'm confident that she would settle in comfortably in a short time.  Now, giving her back to the shelter was never, ever a consideration, and I wouldn't suggest that to anyone. 

cakana, I remember your threads on the two dogs and I am glad you followed the advice given and I am also happy that you were able to cope with your situation.

I think in aggressive situation keeping the dogs separated is the only recourse until you can figure out the triggers.  Knowing the triggers are key to knowing whether or not the dogs can be together unsupervised.

I think the OP should have qualified the topic to be just aggressive situation.  I separate my dogs for various reason.  For example, one dog is separated from the pack during feeding time because I am trying to control the dog's weights.  No enemies are created.  I separate the pack when they are left at home alone.  There again, no enemies created.  I don't think separating dogs per se escalates the aggressive situation.

I use seperation a LOT. I don't want my dogs getting their cues off each other - I want them tuned into me. So, I do have rotating "packs" in my home. It does not cause aggression and it helps training progress, not regress. Much of it is because I have more time to work on actual training with the dogs and less time managing "situations" within a nine to eleven dog "pack" - of which up to three may be temporary residents.

There are dogs who are truly unstable in a way that will constantly shake up the household if allowed the opportunity to interact freely with the other dogs. They wear "kick me" signs and dogs are all too willing to oblige. There IS a time and place for allowing dogs the freedom to make mistakes, but some dogs just don't have the ability to generalize enough, even given thousands of chances to figure it out.

I had such a dog - she would declare war on any bitch introduced into the household, or any dog that wasn't quite right, and also would lash out aggressively, apparently completely at random. It wasn't a learned behavior, because she'd been doing it since she was FIVE WEEKS old, and it reached a peak around seven months old, then I gradually got a handle on it over the years.

I couldn't let that dog interact freely with the household. She could make things uncomfortable for other dogs just walking into a room - they could sense what a loose cannon she was. If you corrected her for it, she'd explode. If you corrected her for that, her stress level would go up and you couldn't do a thing with her - she'd lash out in all directions. I got a long, long way with that dog - to the point where a dog could come and try to pick a fight with her and she'd choose not to fight. But I could never fix that "kick me" sign she wore.

When it comes right down to it, the only "pack" that matters here consists of two individuals, me and any one dog at any one time, whether there are other dogs around or not. It's one place that I do seem to differ widely from CM since I hear the CM people talk so much about pack dynamics - but I'm not sure since I've only seen a few episodes now. I do some of the same work he does (rehab dogs for which the next stop is death row) and it works for me, so, different strokes I guess.

i dont think it would be humane if my mom "rehome" me if i dont get along with my brother, why it would be humane for a dog, dogs need to be rescued from shelters, not put back in them

 
And dogs are not humans. But let's go with that analogy for a moment. Pretend you and your brother don't like each other and the parent tells you to be nice. You don't all of  sudden like your brother just because the parent said so. You still despise them but you've learned to hide your signals. Your still sticking your tongue out or flipping off your brother behind your parent's back, or whatever.
 
Eventually, the issue could resolve it self or never resolve but it would be a human thing, not a canid thing. With dogs, you could let them fight it out and whoever wins gets to be boss. Or you could always be boss and the dogs that accept that get inclusion into the pack, just like the wild. The dogs that can't accept that get excluded, (re-homed), just like the wild. In the wild, a 1 or 2 year old wolf that challenges the alpha often ends, after a struggle, leaving the pack and forming his own if he can find a female.

And dogs are not humans. But let's go with that analogy for a moment. Pretend you and your brother don't like each other and the parent tells you to be nice. You don't all of sudden like your brother just because the parent said so. You still despise them but you've learned to hide your signals. Your still sticking your tongue out or flipping off your brother behind your parent's back, or whatever.

Eventually, the issue could resolve it self or never resolve but it would be a human thing, not a canid thing. With dogs, you could let them fight it out and whoever wins gets to be boss. Or you could always be boss and the dogs that accept that get inclusion into the pack, just like the wild. The dogs that can't accept that get excluded, (re-homed), just like the wild. In the wild, a 1 or 2 year old wolf that challenges the alpha often ends, after a struggle, leaving the pack and forming his own if he can find a female.

 
 
Good post[sm=wink2.gif]

Eventually, the issue could resolve it self or never resolve but it would be a human thing, not a canid thing. With dogs, you could let them fight it out and whoever wins gets to be boss. Or you could always be boss and the dogs that accept that get inclusion into the pack, just like the wild. The dogs that can't accept that get excluded, (re-homed), just like the wild. In the wild, a 1 or 2 year old wolf that challenges the alpha often ends, after a struggle, leaving the pack and forming his own if he can find a female.

 
Very well put, Ron.
 
The thing with separating two conflicting dogs is, it creates a conflict if they have never been allowed to resolve their issues with each other. I am not saying let them fight it out, that could prove disasterous, but as Ron said (and as my friend does), they need to know their "place". Granted, some dogs may never learn this and thus become "excluded" (separated) and for the benefit of that dog's quality of life, should be allowed to go to a home without conflicts OR separation (exclusion). Some dogs just can't get along with others and in these cases, should be rehomed to a family that doesn't have other dogs or that has a very "submissive", "passive", or "calm-submissive" (however you want to word it, you get the idea) dog.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

And dogs are not humans. But let's go with that analogy for a moment. Pretend you and your brother don't like each other and the parent tells you to be nice. You don't all of  sudden like your brother just because the parent said so. You still despise them but you've learned to hide your signals. Your still sticking your tongue out or flipping off your brother behind your parent's back, or whatever.

Eventually, the issue could resolve it self or never resolve but it would be a human thing, not a canid thing. With dogs, you could let them fight it out and whoever wins gets to be boss. Or you could always be boss and the dogs that accept that get inclusion into the pack, just like the wild. The dogs that can't accept that get excluded, (re-homed), just like the wild. In the wild, a 1 or 2 year old wolf that challenges the alpha often ends, after a struggle, leaving the pack and forming his own if he can find a female.

My point was if you dont re home your children why you would do it with your dogs? but ok, lets drop human analogies

Well i think that what CM does with those situation is the best answer, no rehoming and no saparation, they just need to know their boundries and limitations towards eachother

they just need to know their boundries and limitations towards eachother

 
And if the dog accepts these limits, he/she is in the pack. And that probably applies to a large number of dogs that "misbehave." If they know what is expected and who is leading, they fall in line, mostly. Dogs, as do wolves, will test boundaries several times.
 

It is an interesting theory. CM manages this well. I'd strongly advise a back up plan for the rest of the population.