Cultural Differences

you seem to be forgetting the rest of the dog population. The ones that are in the inner city, apartment complexes

 
I hear you Snownose.  The thing is that this is not a cultural issue.  This has to do with city dwellers. That has not to do with country or cultural boundaries.
 
And as of course we know that there are some folks that just should not have a dog at all.  Due to many factors.  Not about culture or country!

ORIGINAL: dogslife


I am pretty sure it actually started this way.  The system being used to say what is a cultural percentage is by far inaccurate.  Both by what is called cultural and what is called a percentage. Redefining terminology is also an issue with this thread.
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What you judge is what is local to yourself.  As Spiritdogs said, you need to support your hypothesis with numbers.  Observations are simply that.  Not factual data.

 
Which brings me back to my point which espencer skipped over: more people, more pet owners, more dogs, so obviously one reads and hears about more problems.  Unless you can put numbers in proper perspective, like Anne said, it turns out to be nothing more than propaganda.  I think espencers entire premise is wrong.  The premise is because of the regard we hold for our dogs, we are at a disadvantage in training technique.  Therefore, if you treat dogs as if it doesn't matter because they're animals, smack them around some and you'll see better results.  Well, I disagree with the premise.  Man's Best Friend is an old saying and it's a good one.  That's good enough for me.  Maybe espencer is really implying that as a country, we have moved too far to the left politically and it even shows in untrained, undisciplined dogs.  Well, we shall see in '08!

spiritdogs
I disagree that "discipline" is more important than training.  Discipline will shut a dog down, and no behavior is often perceived as good behavior.  However, good training produces a well behaved dog, and we certainly have more qualified trainers in this country than ever before, and the number is growing. 

Actually you can have a well behaved dog without knowing any commands, knowing commands does not guaranteed a well behaved dog

Ian Dunbar agrees that you need to do perform corrections (along with training of course) to your dog to have the highest level of success with your dog's behavior, discipline is everywhere, i'm sure your dogs have discipline and they are have not shut down so i dont know what was your point by making that statement

I agree that there is a lot of qualified trainers here but that does not mean that all americans with a dog are thinking on hire one or that they think that after the classes ended they dont need to do anything else for the rest of the dog's life, i can have a dog that was perfect in doggy training but if when i take him home i allow him to do whatever he wants then it was useless

If in those countries people eat dogs or how euthanasia is performed is irrelevant, how they behave is the point

ORIGINAL: dogslife

I do not have the ability to call a country a culture that does this or that.  It is simply too bogus to claim a statement such as started this thread.  You can judge yourself, your area that you live.

And i'm the opposite, therefore i agree with you, because i 've  lived in both places i know what i'm talking about, i'm judging the areas where i have live just like you do

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Because I travel a lot, and I have, I will refrain from saying .."Italians all treat their dogs well, have great excercise routines."  Because this would be a bogus statement. Perhaps I noticed that dogs were being walked on leashes a lot in Italy, but that is not to say that the dogs had/had not any other great times in their lives.  I know nothing of how the quality of life is for a dog in another area. 

What you judge is what is local to yourself.  As Spiritdogs said, you need to support your hypothesis with numbers.  Observations are simply that.  Not factual data.

Travel is not the same as living, unless you were traveling for the cause of studying dog's behavior in other countries, therefore you are right, you dont have the experience to talk about it because you havent lived there, i have, i do not have numbers because those countries dont have the "culture" of studying those facts, however, that experience of living 28 years in another country and experience it myself first hand gives me an advantage to be able to talk about it over those people who have living in the same country all their lifes

i'm judging the areas where i have live just like you do
 
No, you are judging the entire country, and calling it a culture. If you lived a certain amount of time everywhere in this country, then you would have a greater spectrum to analyze.  However, you are simply observing. Not providing a standardized testing survey to give any kind of specific information.  To live in an area and make judgements is your perogative.  However, you are not truly showing exacting knowledge. 
 
Helpful information to a society provides logistics when they put out a statement like you have at the beginning of this thread.   With that study comes an abundant amount of further informatio to substantiate your theory.  And even then it is not a fact, still theory.
 
Facts are a lot more difficult to come by than stating what you personally have observed over any amount of time. 

ORIGINAL: dogslife

No, you are judging the entire country, and calling it a culture. If you lived a certain amount of time everywhere in this country, then you would have a greater spectrum to analyze.  However, you are simply observing. Not providing a standardized testing survey to give any kind of specific information.  To live in an area and make judgements is your perogative.  However, you are not truly showing exacting knowledge. 

Helpful information to a society provides logistics when they put out a statement like you have at the beginning of this thread.   With that study comes an abundant amount of further informatio to substantiate your theory.  And even then it is not a fact, still theory.

Facts are a lot more difficult to come by than stating what you personally have observed over any amount of time. 

 
It seems that you (and some others) toke my original statement too personal, i have lived in another country, i have seen it for myself, i'm living in this one now, if you want me to live in 3 or 4 different USA cities for more than 3 i will have to dissapoint you, this is what i see, this is what other people say in another cities who also have been living in other countries
 
If you want every topic to be backed up with scientific prove then maybe the moderators will have to think about closing the entire forum, so my question is, have you been living in another country before to be able to disagree with that statement?

It is always nice to find a balance between proper care of a dog without crossing the line into spoiled and annoying or even worse, dangerous dogs. In the United States, some people do cross the line into spoiling versus meeting the dog's needs. I find having toy breeds as fashion accessories to be particularly annoying. This also happens in other countries and is by no means particularly American and you will find a large percentage of Americans also find it offensive.
 
Most of CM's work is done in large, wealthy urban areas. In those areas there are a lot of the trend conscious people. There are also those who horribly mistreat the animals. I've seen a couple of shows where well meaning people have adopted adult dogs and their love and kindness approach didn't work, although it had for other adopted animals. Why? The dog's background was such that it didn't understand the human method of communication so the human needed to change to something the dog did understand. Most of the time a very well socialized dog (and this means having toy dogs walk on their own four feet), even if spoiled, will not present a danger.
 
As to the idea that in some countries the dogs aren't walked but don't present problems, I think it may go to the idea that they are too busy trying to have other needs met. Sort of a canine version of Maslow's Theory of Heirarchy with some dogs in America and in other countries trying hard for sustanenace, and others having that in abundance, finding other needs to meet. We do have a fair number of "self-actualized" dogs that are estatic about doing the work they excel in.

Having been a trucker for over 1,000,000 miles in 44 states (and 5 provinces of Canada), I can tell you that "culture" is very different in each area of the US.  So, unless you lived in all 50 states...

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Having been a trucker for over 1,000,000 miles in 44 states (and 5 provinces of Canada), I can tell you that "culture" is very different in each area of the US.  So, unless you lived in all 50 states...

Again, traveling is different than living in, just like in this country people eat dinner at 5 or 6 pm (yuck) in other countries they do it untill 8 or 9.

Is just like eople having different accents in this country, 90% of them speak English at the end anyways, there are small changes but the result is the same, the same goes for human-dog relations

When you were going to Canada you could see the difference right away between Americans and Canadians even when they were just 10 miles away, same between Mexicans and Americans, just cross the river or the wall and they dont beheave the same even when they are next to eachother but the americans still have the American Culture all around the country regardless if they are in El Paso or right in the middle of the country

Go outside USA and live in another country and then you can tell me if i'm right or wrong

Again, traveling is different than living in

[color=#000000]espencer, aren't you contradicting yourself here?  Have you lived in Virginia?  Have you lived in Idaho?  Have you lived in Maine?  Have you lived in North Dakota?  If not, then how (by your standards) could you possibly know and understand the cultures and customs of those (very different) areas of the US?  Also, you keep saying that the US is one way and other countries are another way.  Have you lived in Egypt?  Have you lived in Russia?  Have you lived in China?  If not, then how you can lump the US in one category and the whole rest of the world  in another?  [/color]
 

[color=#000000]just like in this country people eat dinner at 5 or 6 pm (yuck)

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Not true!  In some areas of the country "dinner" is eaten at noon.  The last meal of the day is "supper". [sm=proud.gif]
 
eta:  I will admit though, I have visited Spain twice and I became very fond of the late evening meals (and wine).  [sm=wink2.gif]

ORIGINAL: minimom

[color="#000000"]espencer, aren't you contradicting yourself here?  Have you lived in Virginia?  Have you lived in Idaho?  Have you lived in Maine?  Have you lived in North Dakota?  If not, then how (by your standards) could you possibly know and understand the cultures and customs of those (very different) areas of the US? 
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ORIGINAL: espencer

Is just like eople having different accents in this country, 90% of them speak English at the end anyways, there are small changes but the result is the same

but the americans still have the American Culture all around the country regardless if they are in El Paso or right in the middle of the country

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ORIGINAL: minimom

[color="#000000"]Also, you keep saying that the US is one way and other countries are another way.
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Yes, thats how it is[color="#000000"] 

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ORIGINAL: minimom
[color="#000000"]Have you lived in Egypt?  Have you lived in Russia?  Have you lived in China?  [/color]

Mexico, 28 years (Mexico City 13, Cancun 15)

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Having been a trucker for over 1,000,000 miles in 44 states (and 5 provinces of Canada), I can tell you that "culture" is very different in each area of the US.  So, unless you lived in all 50 states...

Again, traveling is different than living in, just like in this country people eat dinner at 5 or 6 pm (yuck) in other countries they do it untill 8 or 9.

Is just like eople having different accents in this country, 90% of them speak English at the end anyways, there are small changes but the result is the same, the same goes for human-dog relations

When you were going to Canada you could see the difference right away between Americans and Canadians even when they were just 10 miles away, same between Mexicans and Americans, just cross the river or the wall and they dont beheave the same even when they are next to eachother but the americans still have the American Culture all around the country regardless if they are in El Paso or right in the middle of the country

Go outside USA and live in another country and then you can tell me if i'm right or wrong

I don't have to live in another country to tell you that you are wrong.  I live in America and have freedom of speech!
You are wrong because you are generalizing and seem to have an anti-American bias.  Of course, we all are different - but that does not mean that there aren't some very polite people with well behaved dogs in America, and some rude people with obnoxious dogs in Mexico, or vice versa.  If you want to bash someone's country, that's your prerogative, but I don't have to keep my mouth shut and not tell you how wrong I think you are.  For everyone who spoils a dog, there are others who do an awesome job training theirs, right here in the good old USA.  The search dogs at Ground Zero were not all handled by professionals.  Everyday folks from all across this country went to help as volunteers, and brought their well-trained, hard working dogs with them.  For every Cujo, there's a Sioux.  The nice dogs don't often come to anyone's attention - too busy cuddling up with a four year old on a nap mat in someone's living room. 
If you want so badly to criticize, pick on a country that is inhumane, not just indulgent.

Come on Espencer, you've lived in two mexican cities, and as far as I understand it, one american city, and this gives you the ability to compare dogs in Mexico vs Dogs in the US as a whole. Yet you dismiss the opinions of those who offer their point of view of dogs based on observations made while traveling. So does that mean that because you've lived in three cities you can sumarize dogs in two countries, but people that have seen dogs accross an entire country can't do the same for that same country?

You're also stating that there are "small changes" within the US, and the human-dog relations are basically the same. Now, here I can talk according to your standards, I have lived in the northeastern US and in the south, and the "small changes" you talk about, are not so small. The same way that a person from northern Mexico will feel like they are in an entirely different country when they visit the southeast.

I have lived in both countries (and in others if 2-4 months at the time counts), and truth be told, while there are differences in culture and they do affect human-dog relations, I'd be hard pressed to bet that they are centered around mexicans disciplining their dogs more than americans, or on americans being permissive and weak with their dogs.

CM said that it wasn't until he moved to the US that he realized about the dog problems. If you look at the context of that statement there are a coupel of things to note, first off, he moved from Mazatlan (not what I would call a triving metropolis) to either L.A. or San Diego (I can't remember), but both of those are HUGE cities, so yes dogs will have VERY different lives.

Another thing that I was thinking about this morning. I see more people walking their dogs here than I have seen in Mexico, and according to you in Mexico discipline is the first element to play into a dog-human relationship, at least before affection. So, with that in mind and your statements, we could say that for american dogs it's affection, then some excercise, and if they are lucky, finally a little discipline right? as for mexican dogs, I see discipline, no structured excercise (unless you're looking at dogs in rural settings), and maybe some affection. Yet you say that dogs in Mexico are more "balanced" than american dogs, even though they are not provided the CM trifecta.


I honestly believe that there are as many messed up dogs in Mexico as there are in the US, the difference is that in Mexico a messed up dog will be confined to the back patio for pretty much the rest of it's life.

Well, I have lived in a very rural area and a very urban area of this country and I'll tell you that the treatment of dogs is not even remotely the same between those two venues.
 
Where I lived in the country, a dog living inside your house was a rarity. Dogs belong outside, on chains or in pens. Maybe you have one tiny dog that you have in your house, but anything over 20 lbs. is outside only. They do not go to the vet ever for any reason, they do not wear ID tags, they do not get fed anything but Ol Roy. They are not working dogs, they are just yard dogs. They do not get trained, they do not have rules, they do not get affection, they do not get exercise--sometimes they get kicked or shot at with a pellet gun if they bark too much. That's your pampering in the US for you. The dogs who lived next door to me in Maryland, despite being owned by a very wealthy family, lived outside in a cement floored kennel their entire lives. One had a festering sore on his tail basically the entire time we lived there (4 years) from a poor docking job, one was not neutered, none of them recieved any care at all. They were utterly neglected. This was totally standard for that area. No one batted an eye. Driving around you just saw yard after yard after yard with a mangey, starving dog tied to a dog house.
 
Here in the city where we have to walk our dogs down crowded sidewalks and get our exercise at public off-leash parks, you see some very well trained, well exercised dogs indeed. It's sort of a necessity when you live so close to lots of other people (and their dogs).

ORIGINAL: espencer

CM often talks about the problems that "dogs from USA" have, in his book he says that he never saw that amount of problems untill he came to this country, of course if you have never live outside USA would be a little bit difficult to make a comparision

I think that in USA people has the economic level to give more and that includes pets, i'm talking about toys, kennels, better and more expensive food, doggy beds, doggy steps, etc. In USA there is more chance to be "spoiled". Some of those things make dog's life more balanced and some others are just "extras"

In another countries dogs are seeing as dogs and not as little children, which maybe thats one of the main reasons.

Also the mentality about life in general has to do with the problem, i feel in USA people come home and give extra affection after all the problems they face at work, like some kind of "therapy" to help themselves be more relax; in another countries however people have this kind of "come on, suck it up and tomorrow will be a better day" kind of view about life, which could prevent them from come home and have this need of "feel loved" by someone. That does not make those people in another countries heartless towards their pets but they dont have the need of "spoil the only one they have in my life" because that "makes me feel better"------right there is the difference between spoiling dogs when you get home and just give affection when the owner is ready to give it. They both love their pets but is the amount of affection and for the right situation is what also makes a difference

Discipline is also a factor here, a lot of people in USA let their dogs do whatever they want which is really rare outside the country, people in another countries know that dogs need discipline, boundries and limitations in some way

What confuses me is that outside USA i havent seen a lot of owners walking their dogs, which makes me wonder about the excersice part of the equation, why the dogs out there seem more balanced if they dont walk that much?

Of course not every dog is balanced outside USA and not every dog is spoiled inside USA, i have a couple friends that do not live in this country that have dog's problems, but like i said in the beginning, the amount of dogs with problems are significantly more in USA that in another countries

 
All I can say to you Espencer is that if you do not understand the importance of scientific studies, and you think that it is about personal insult, well a lot of colleges and universities would be superfluous in their agendas...There would be no need to study...  I could just make an observation and say because I see it it it so.  It is not a pretty thought.

ORIGINAL: espencer
[color="#000000"]Also, you keep saying that the US is one way and other countries are another way.
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Yes, thats how it is[color="#000000"] 

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[color="#000000"]If one of us said that all other countries are great and Mexico isn't, how would that make you feel?  Your statement is as much a bigoted slur as any more obvious hateful remark that you could have uttered.  This is what makes Americans want to close the borders....

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