Humans, dogs, and the "get-it" factor

i think this is a really interesting thread...
 
i've been on both sides of the coin.  my male is so high energy that it is truly difficult for him to relax EVER, even after hours of excersise and especially in the presence of other dogs.  he just wants to play and play and play... at the vet, though, he has learned to sit politely, which is really amazing to me,  but we didn't get there overnight.  he used to have a separate entrance because of his cat aggression- i had to convince the vet staff to give me an opportunity to work with him in the office so he could learn to control himself- they were nervous over an incident in which a resident cat was harmed by a pit whose owner had no control, physical or otherwise,over the dog.  (luckily i spend a lot of money in there and they know my dogs)  because of MY size, people often doubt my abilities to control my dogs- i'm 5 feet tall and 130 lbs.  this illustrates another issue:  people rely on PHYSICAL control of their animals instead of building a mental relationship.  i am the poster child for the "get-it" factor.  if someone my size can control a 65 lb high energy staffy amongst any number of stimuli, then anyone can.  
 
i can't tell you how often i sit at the vet and watch schnauzers or chi's or beagles control their handlers- exactly as all the posts before: rushing to the ends of their leads, dragging people around, barking VERY aggressively in a manner that NOBODY would tolerate out of my dog but seem to excuse in the smaller dogs.
 
but obviously i'm preaching to the converted[].

by the way, i'm with DPU on this one- if i see a circus, i take my dog and hide in the corner.  no matter how much control i have, my dogs will only tolerate so many mounting attempts before they retaliate and we know what a big scene that could cause.

Sounds like it all boils down do what we expect from our dogs, you're right Willowchow.
If you don't consider X being a problem then you don't feel like you failed in training your dog. As it goes: "Sometimes the solution to a morale problem is just to fire all of the unhappy people."

I guess at some level we need to ask ourselves what it is we want from our dogs and why did we get it... Figuring that out will give us a clearer idea on what work needs to be done and what is a priority. I was reading though one of the dog breed "reviews" and one owner said: "Buddy is dog aggressive and will not stand any dog anywhere near him. But, I leave in the mountains and there is no people or dogs, so I don't care." Well, that problem is solved.

ORIGINAL: DPU.

ORIGINAL: espencer
Well i dont want a direct quote, i mean, why do you think that walking is not a good excersice for the dog and only a way to "show the world"? your answer will be a reflection of what other members told you

What made sense to me is level of exersion the dogs expends during play.  In my dogs backyard time:
….Dogs got to walk.  Dogs got to prance.  Dogs got to run.  Dogs got to leap.  Dogs got to pivot.  Dogs got to chase.  Dogs got to be chased.  Dogs got to hide.  Dogs got to stalk.  Dogs got to pounce.  Dogs got to play tug-o-war.  Dogs got to play fetch.  Dogs got to shake.  Dogs got to wrestle.  Dogs got to bark.  Some dogs run the agility course.  And at the end, the dog has to p and poop.

 
DPU: 
 
I commend you on taking foster dogs into your home and caring for them and training them the best you can.  I also commend you for seeking solutions to your issues and asking questions and trying to learn a solution that would fit you and work for you and your dogs.  Having multiple dogs give your multiple problems needing solutions.  I know you do the best you can do for them with your time, money and energy.  I hope no one of this forum would judge you because you can't find the time or energy to take a pack of dogs for a daily walk.  You providing agility courses and overseeing aggressive play is more than most people who own one dog would do.
 
Don#%92t allow anyone to make you feel inadequate because the dogs don't go for a formal walk.   A formal walk does allow your dogs to sniff and search the environment and Cesar talks to that often – its part of their need to hunt.  It also allows for structure in their minds and exercises them not only physically as it does mentally.  It is clear you do all you can possible for your adopted/foster dogs.  I#%92m afraid that some who condemn you here may not even own a dog never mind offering their hearts, homes, time and money for a bunch of troubled dogs who now are AT LEAST lucky enough to be feed, have love and a chance at life.  Your special, thanks for making a difference.

Off topic.

We've discussed "the walk" in numerous threads. This is the CM forum and it is part of his philosophy.

One can choose to use it, or not.
 
Your remarks: "some who condem you here may not even own a dog" are inflamatory, baiting, and serve no useful purpose other than to start trouble. 

ORIGINAL: badrap

i think this is a really interesting thread...

i've been on both sides of the coin.  my male is so high energy that it is truly difficult for him to relax EVER, even after hours of excersise and especially in the presence of other dogs.  he just wants to play and play and play... at the vet, though, he has learned to sit politely, which is really amazing to me,  but we didn't get there overnight.  he used to have a separate entrance because of his cat aggression- i had to convince the vet staff to give me an opportunity to work with him in the office so he could learn to control himself- they were nervous over an incident in which a resident cat was harmed by a pit whose owner had no control, physical or otherwise,over the dog.  (luckily i spend a lot of money in there and they know my dogs)  because of MY size, people often doubt my abilities to control my dogs- i'm 5 feet tall and 130 lbs.  this illustrates another issue:  people rely on PHYSICAL control of their animals instead of building a mental relationship.  i am the poster child for the "get-it" factor.  if someone my size can control a 65 lb high energy staffy amongst any number of stimuli, then anyone can.  

i can't tell you how often i sit at the vet and watch schnauzers or chi's or beagles control their handlers- exactly as all the posts before: rushing to the ends of their leads, dragging people around, barking VERY aggressively in a manner that NOBODY would tolerate out of my dog but seem to excuse in the smaller dogs.

but obviously i'm preaching to the converted[].

 
Ah-ha! Great post! [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]
 
I remember a thread about small dogs awhile back.
 
It's not that they are any worse due to a lack of owner education, leadership, training, or fulfillment than big dogs. However, they tend to be more easily spoiled and the bad behavior put up with due to their size. IMOAE

ORIGINAL: badrap

by the way, i'm with DPU on this one- if i see a circus, i take my dog and hide in the corner.  no matter how much control i have, my dogs will only tolerate so many mounting attempts before they retaliate and we know what a big scene that could cause.

Off Topic:  I think you meant to put a not after the i'm.

On Topic:  Just in case I was not clear I would have acted to make something positve out of the situation and the least I would have done was to use my consumer power and not patronize a circus setting at a vet's clinic.
 
Isn't that the core of CM teachings, to turn around a bad situation?

Ok... here I go on my soap box![sm=soap%20box.gif] I have noticed with some of my clients (I am sure that most of you guys that work with or around dogs and there owners have too) run in to the fact that when they take a OBT class they only want to teach there dog the basic that they are important than they drop out of the class saying that was all they wanted there dogs to learn and that would not need the rest of the course! I had one client tell me they were giving there 5mo old lab away because she was just not what they were expecting. I mean what did they think they were going to get a dog that trains itself![sm=banghead002.gif][sm=banghead002.gif][sm=banghead002.gif] I met the person they were giving the dog to and this person had far more sence than this client so I was glad that this storie ended well but to know that this goes on[:@] Than they go to the vet and dont know why there dog is acting up cause they went to OBT!

ORIGINAL: DPU.

Just in case I was not clear I would have acted to make something positve out of the situation and the least I would have done was to use my consumer power and not patronize a circus setting at a vet's clinic.

Sometimes the most positive thing you can do is sit there with a well behaved dog in amidst the chaos. There is no greater marketing tool than a stable, balanced, socially well behaved dog.

Personally, I would not hire a trainer who's dogs cannot be managed in this type of setting.

But please, tell us how you would both control your own client's dog, and enlighten others who may or may not be receptive to your advice or choice in "dog handling/conditioning/communication" methods in this chaotic situation.

Easier said than done. IMO

ORIGINAL: politepuppyobedience

Ok... here I go on my soap box![sm=soap%20box.gif] I have noticed with some of my clients (I am sure that most of you guys that work with or around dogs and there owners have too) run in to the fact that when they take a OBT class they only want to teach there dog the basic that they are important than they drop out of the class saying that was all they wanted there dogs to learn and that would not need the rest of the course! I had one client tell me they were giving there 5mo old lab away because she was just not what they were expecting. I mean what did they think they were going to get a dog that trains itself![sm=banghead002.gif][sm=banghead002.gif][sm=banghead002.gif] I met the person they were giving the dog to and this person had far more sence than this client so I was glad that this storie ended well but to know that this goes on[:@] Than they go to the vet and dont know why there dog is acting up cause they went to OBT!

I completely get where you're coming from and I feel your pain. []

As you can see from the many threads in this forum alone, teaching a dog to "sit", only teaches them a specific command. It does little to solve social and behavioral problems, and it does not teach them boundaries.
 
Even with the basic class you are describing, there can be little follow through on this level. If some folks can't even stick with a few obedience commands, how can you even begin to address some of the social aspects of dogs and humans living together.
 

 

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Sometimes the most positive thing you can do is sit there with a well behaved dog in amidst the chaos. There is no greater marketing tool than a stable, balanced, socially well behaved dog....

But please, tell us how you would both control your own client's dog, and enlighten others who may or may not be receptive to your advice or choice in "dog handling/conditioning/communication" methods in this chaotic situation....

Oh you are not going to get any rocket science stuff here.  The act of getting involved in the situation, from volunteering at shelters, fostering, dog placement, or even in a yappy snappy vet's office can make a big difference to change things in positive way.   In the latter situation, having a positive mindset determined to make things calm by being calm.  As for the dog in hand, once it is shown you can control dogs (the marketing strategy to show your competence) the dog can be placed in the car giving total freedom to help others in any number of ways.  Of course the more dog knowledge I have the more I can offer. 

As I said your observation is not anything I have seen and if the vet's staff can't control the situation, then that is not a place I would patronize and I would let my consumer power speak.  I know I would do something because of other situations.  Like at a foster dog showing and two St Bernards being handled by one owner started fighting.  Without hesitation I butted one of the St and grabbed the leash and pulled the dog away.  In another situation, I was sitting when two foster started fighting.  Without hesitation, my boot was between their snouts.  I then proceeded to create calm.  There are others situation that have come up and I find my response is natural and a willingness to get involved in bad situations.

Luvmyswissy:  Thank you for the post.  Your words were very kind and encouraging but I must admit with my experience on this forum, I expected a BUT as I read.  Thank you for the no BUT.  You have made me happy today.  Oh yeah, how come you don't have a puppy swissy at all times in your home.  Those pups are the cutest in the world.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

DPU: 

I commend you on taking foster dogs into your home and caring for them and training them the best you can.  I also commend you for seeking solutions to your issues and asking questions and trying to learn a solution that would fit you and work for you and your dogs.  Having multiple dogs give your multiple problems needing solutions.  I know you do the best you can do for them with your time, money and energy.  I hope no one of this forum would judge you because you can't find the time or energy to take a pack of dogs for a daily walk.  You providing agility courses and overseeing aggressive play is more than most people who own one dog would do.

Don't allow anyone to make you feel inadequate because the dogs don't go for a formal walk.   A formal walk does allow your dogs to sniff and search the environment and Cesar talks to that often – its part of their need to hunt.  It also allows for structure in their minds and exercises them not only physically as it does mentally.  It is clear you do all you can possible for your adopted/foster dogs.  I'm afraid that some who condemn you here may not even own a dog never mind offering their hearts, homes, time and money for a bunch of troubled dogs who now are AT LEAST lucky enough to be feed, have love and a chance at life.  Your special, thanks for making a difference.

Dont worry, nobody was saying that about DPU anyways

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Off topic.

We've discussed "the walk" in numerous threads. This is the CM forum and it is part of his philosophy.

One can choose to use it, or not.

Your remarks: "some who condem you here may not even own a dog" are inflamatory, baiting, and serve no useful purpose other than to start trouble. 

Agreed, I hope the mods are seeing that no matter what warnings they give, *some* people here think they can continue they behavior they whine so much about. Because other than *just stirring up* more BS, why go there? And who are the ones without dogs?

  badrap

Nice to have you aboard.[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

When I read DPU's post about the walks what immediately came to my mind is the fact that walking just doesn't tire out dogs. It's not that great of an exercise for them. The importance of walks is in socializing and seeing new things, but DPU's fosters see new things and people all the time (it sounds like) from shelter/foster related events like pet stores and stuff.
 
I don't walk my dog everyday. Often, I'm more in the mood to go across the street to the park and run around like crazy. Or go into the woods and do an off-leash expedition.