Dog Community

CM and NILIF

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:22:41 PM

Why do you think C. Millan never mentions NILIF as secondary approach to changing bad behavior? (His primary being - exercise, boundaries & limitations, etc.)

luvmyswissy

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:41:29 PM

I think he does without saying those words or labeling it NILIF. He believes that a dog needs to follow rules before affection – it#%92s the same premise.

espencer

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:51:53 PM

I know he i always saying that is better when the dog feels that is working for his food, that along with discipline boundries and limitations is similar to NILIF

I think that he does not talk about it since you can command a dog to sit so he can receive a treat but that does not mean that the dog is not excited anymore, he can be seated and excited, therefore you are rewarding to be seated but at the same time you are "rewarding" excitement and CM rathers to remind owners that the dog needs to be calm before anything, being standing and calm is better that seated and excited

The attention on demand is similar of what for CM is demanding personal space

jones

Posted : 1/30/2007 11:15:08 PM

I think he does without saying those words or labeling it NILIF. He believes that a dog needs to follow rules before affection – it#%92s the same premise.

I agree... I also think it would undermine his "brand" by referring to that practice as anything other than his own advice.

J M

Posted : 1/31/2007 3:28:20 AM

I wonder why the focus is on calm?

I think a dog can be excited, happy and obediant.

ORIGINAL: espencer

I know he i always saying that is better when the dog feels that is working for his food, that along with discipline boundries and limitations is similar to NILIF

I think that he does not talk about it since you can command a dog to sit so he can receive a treat but that does not mean that the dog is not excited anymore, he can be seated and excited, therefore you are rewarding to be seated but at the same time you are "rewarding" excitement and CM rathers to remind owners that the dog needs to be calm before anything, being standing and calm is better that seated and excited

The attention on demand is similar of what for CM is demanding personal space

Deb

Posted : 1/31/2007 7:20:34 AM

I actually disagree.

NILIF has a distinct focus on obedience. It's doing specific "tasks" in exchange for "stuff."

CM doesn't, IME, work that way, he seems to be after a more vague sense of calmness or goodness than doing tricks for dinner.

My opinion on that is that it's easier to work with specifics (dinner= sit-stay) and let these specific behaviors become specific default behaviors than it is to talk in general terms like "calmness." I find NILIF more practical. JMHO.

snownose

Posted : 1/31/2007 7:27:07 AM

Let's not forget what CM does....behavior modification.

I think he would even suggest calling a good trainer for anything other than what he does.[

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jenhuedepohl

Posted : 1/31/2007 10:26:24 AM

I agree with espencer - Cesar does practice a form of NILIF, but he focuses on the dogs state of mind rather than a specific task. I couldn't count the number of times he's said not to reward excited or nervous behavior. It's really changed how I deal with my dogs. I've been asking then to sit and wait at mealtimes for years, but only after watching Cesar have I been making them wait until they are calm and relaxed. Made a big difference. I do the same thing a the door. No walkies until they are calm. Really helped with rushing out the door and pulling on the leash like they did when I only asked them to sit and wait.

TinaK

Posted : 1/31/2007 11:03:59 AM

From what I gathere about NILIF, the 'work' that a dog does before, say getting fed, had to be *immediate*. As in SIT - "OK, have your dinner", STAY - "OK, I'll play fetch". For Millan isn't not the case - he suggests walks before feeding in the morning - the dog would feel like it'd worked for it, etc... No immediate link between a command and a reward.

espencer

Posted : 1/31/2007 11:47:13 AM

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

CM doesn't, IME, work that way, he seems to be after a more vague sense of calmness or goodness than doing tricks for dinner.

My opinion on that is that it's easier to work with specifics (dinner= sit-stay) and let these specific behaviors become specific default behaviors than it is to talk in general terms like "calmness." I find NILIF more practical. JMHO.

What do you mean with vague? i actually think that asking the dog to sit is a more vague calmness, he can be steated but actually not even paying attention to what you have to say next

Example, like jenhuedepohl said, there is a difference between asking the dog to sit before going out the door and waiting for him to be calm to do it, why? because if you just tell him to sit his mind is still in that "trip" of "ok yes lets go, i'm seated now, open the freaking door!!!!" and you would go out with a still excited dog, if you really wait to be calmed then the walk will be totally different

Of course telling the dog to sit down helps because the dog is not on a "ready to go-at the count of 3" position but being seated does not mean either he is actually calm

Susan Robertson

Posted : 1/31/2007 3:49:07 PM

I wonder why the focus is on calm?

Because excited does not equal happy. And, an excited dog will generally not focus on you or be in the right state of mind to learn.

I know if Kato is calm, he is much more apt to behave, learn and train much easier than if I get him all excited first and then expect him to obey.

I'd rather deal with a calm person than an overly excited annoying person! It's all a state of mind.

Awsomedog

Posted : 1/31/2007 8:30:27 PM

ORIGINAL: espencer

because if you just tell him to sit his mind is still in that "trip" of "ok yes lets go, i'm seated now, open the freaking door!!!!"

Wait for it, Bahahahahaha Bahahahahaha Laughed out loud at that one.

Because excited does not equal happy.

Now that's genius. Well said Mastiff.

J M

Posted : 1/31/2007 10:36:22 PM

I can see your point in different levels of excitement.

Of course the excitement of seeing a cat is different than butt wiggling excitement.

One being agitation, the other being enthusiasm.

One should be discouraged and one encouraged.

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

I wonder why the focus is on calm?

Because excited does not equal happy. And, an excited dog will generally not focus on you or be in the right state of mind to learn.

I know if Kato is calm, he is much more apt to behave, learn and train much easier than if I get him all excited first and then expect him to obey.

I'd rather deal with a calm person than an overly excited annoying person! It's all a state of mind.

ron2

Posted : 2/1/2007 5:35:32 AM

CM does do NILIF, it's just not the basis of his training. It is part of controlling the environment. If you have the chance, watch the show where he's feeding the rotties. They each have their place and their own bowl and must sit and wait to get their food and will get a correction if the surf to someone else's bowl. The correction may be nothing more than tsst. Whatever works to get them back to their own bowl.

CM does what he does based on the pack model. In a pack, of which he has seen many, dogs learn by correction with belonging to the pack being the reward, getting food from being with a smart pack being a reward that results in continued living. The alpha dog does not tell the others when they can eat. He just eats the part he wants and others can have the rest. The structure of NILIF is not found in nature in the way that humans use it with dogs.

Awsomedog

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:17:09 AM

^[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]^ Isn't it nice to actually have enjoyable conversations about Cesar.