The Owner's Equipment

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Angelique, I wouldn't necessarily assume that a neck collar could stop a dog intent on a redirected bite.  In fact, it gives the dog more latitude, not less. 

 
Comments are based on personal experiences in using neck collars correctly with out of control, aggressive, biting dogs, not assumptions.
 
A tool is simply a tool, unless it is being used as a band-aid, used with the wrong dog, used incorrectly, or used for the wrong reason on the wrong dog.
 
If one's preferred handling methods and preferred training style offers reasoning (which they are comfortable with) for how that person uses a specific tool for their specific methods, that is their choice and that is fine.
 
There are different philosophies which can be used and a choice can be made to either use counter-conditioning training methods, rewards and/or punishments alone, or use Cesar's approach in rehabilitating aggressive dogs.
 
To each his own.
 
 

It's funny to me how Gentle Leader and other similar head collars are so hearlded by "positive" trainers.  Most dogs I see wearing them are clearly uncomfortable with the loop around their muzzle.  I used one on my own dog for about a year and he always tried to paw it off.  It was only sucsessful at stopping him from pulling while it was on, and I noticed a significant loss of drive on his part during our our walks.  It was almost as if he would shut down.

The fact is, the loop around the muzzle is uncomfortale and unnatural to most dogs.  It is correcting all the time, continuously; not just when the dog pulls.  It is not a true training collar because when you take it off, the dog goes right back to pulling again.  I've also read of dangerous potential for neck and spine injury if used improperly.  And really, how can we expect JQP to use a GL correctly if he doesn't have the common sense and judgement not to try everything he sees on Dog Whisperer?

One more thing, half of the reason GL works is becasuse the collar is high and tight on the neck, just behind the ears.  Sound familiar?    

Well, not all positive trainers are fans of the GL. Suzanne Clothier is definatley not and she has an article on her website advocating prong collars over head halters.

But the fact still remains that I have seen Cesar change the collar on dogs on the show, so clearly it isn't only the energy in some cases, but also the equipment.

I'm not a huge fan of head halters myself. A lot of dogs are really put off by them and while they don't cause physical pain I've seen a lot of dog's spirits really dampened by them. I'd prefer a no-pull harness. Though really I'd prefer a flat collar and learning to walk on loose lead with that.

I'm kind of on the fence about head collars also. I'm not conviced that the strap across the muzzle is as "gentle" as it is made out to be. I've seen it work great for some dogs and some dogs that seem miserable with it, no matter how much they are conditioned to it. If it works for you, great. But if your dog isn't comfortable with it after a reasonable amount of conditioning I'd look elsewhere.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I've seen a lot of dog's spirits really dampened by them.

That's exactly what I meant by lack of drive.

I've used prongs, a gentle leader and a no-pull harness on a very drivey/aggressive dog.

With this particular dog, the prong escalated aggression big time. In general, I agree with Clothier's assesment of prongs v. gentle leaders, though.

The GL was the only solution for getting enough control over this dog to teach her to walk with me because she was extremely reactive. But this came at a cost. She never got used to it, even though I slowly desensitized her to it, and I don't like the way it shut her down. I don't know what the GL was doing to her, but it was not good. I have seen similar low morale in other dogs, and have decided it's more of a specialty tool, that it's a little intense for just teaching a dog how to walk.

With that dog, we graduated to the easy-walk harness after about a month of work, and that worked much better, but she needed the confinement of the GL to learn how to walk on the harness.

In general, if I had a pully dog problem that was not paired with reactivity, I would use a harness or prong to get a little control, and then work on loose-lead walking with an eye toward phasing out the device. I would not use a GL on a dog unless it was absolutely necessary.

This is another thread which really belongs in the general training area.
 
But, here's some additional info, anyway:
 
[linkhttp://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/]http://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/[/link]
 
Interesting that some trainers and owners will insist on using these "tools" regardless of the dog's body language indicating how much the dog hates it. Some dogs do finally quit fighting them and give up...are we talking "learned helplessness" in those situations? []
 
Her obsevations about disciplinary contact in the muzzle area is spot on, IMO.
 
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

His way to see it is that it does not matter what kind of leash you use, is the way you walk your dog what makes the difference, the right attitude is the only thing you need

 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

But the fact still remains that I have seen Cesar change the collar on dogs on the show, so clearly it isn't only the energy in some cases, but also the equipment.

 
I'm with CM on this one..... I think that the tool you use is less important than the relationship you have with him or how effectively you communicate.  That is not to say that the tool is irrelevant - that's not what I'm saying at all.  I think by instructing the owner in the use of a more effective tool he empowers them to handle their dog more easily and more confidently, I really think that is key.  That's not something that's ever been explained in a show I've seen, just me reading between the lines so don't shoot me if I've got that wrong.

I think he usually downplays the equipment aspect of handling, but I have often observed a switch, typically from flat to choke. Sometimes he will state that he's moving a choke up behind the ears when the owners were using it at mid-neck. I saw him use, and explain the use of, the Ilusion collar one time.

Interesting that some trainers and owners will insist on using these "tools" regardless of the dog's body language indicating how much the dog hates it. Some dogs do finally quit fighting them and give up...are we talking "learned helplessness" in those situations?

Her obsevations about disciplinary contact in the muzzle area is spot on, IMO.

 
Good post[]

well now you got me thinking.

Since I brought up the "learned helplessness" theory, it has been bandied about a few times in baiting others.

So, I am thinking that with that study, I may have offended some.

 Truthfully, it is clear that some were offended by the info.

So along with the the biblical quote, I apologize for posting the learned helplessness theory.

My point being...

This Forum Is Going To Self Destruct If The Sniping Doesn't Stop.

It is even being carried over into other threads and other parts of the board.

People are even following one another, hoping they get a rise using underlying sly remarks like this one.

So...I don't have a problem aplogozing to those who have taken offense at the things that I have said.

For the sake of the forum,

I hope others don't have a problem apologizing either.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

This is another thread which really belongs in the general training area.

But, here's some additional info, anyway:

[linkhttp://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/]http://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/[/link]

Interesting that some trainers and owners will insist on using these "tools" regardless of the dog's body language indicating how much the dog hates it. Some dogs do finally quit fighting them and give up...are we talking "learned helplessness" in those situations? []

Her obsevations about disciplinary contact in the muzzle area is spot on, IMO.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'm curious what others think about CM's willingness to use the equipment that the owner already has on the dog.  Do you think it's because he feels that the owner will not be willing to change anything about that?
I find myself making suggestions about equipment changes, from time to time, if I think it will benefit the dog, and have often wondered why he doesn't seem to do that.  Does anyone know for sure?

Whats the chances of one person watching one CM episode and seeing he switched collars and stated why.  I think he forgo the owner's collar and use the leash instead.  That is what I saw on the shiny floor episode.

in a few episodes he's also turned retractable leashes around to use them as chokes, and if I'm not mistaken he always puts on one of his $.75 leashes when the dogs have harnesses. I do remember in an episode he said he likes to work as much as possible with what the owners already have in place.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

This is another thread which really belongs in the general training area.

But, here's some additional info, anyway:

[linkhttp://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/]http://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html/[/link]

Interesting that some trainers and owners will insist on using these "tools" regardless of the dog's body language indicating how much the dog hates it. Some dogs do finally quit fighting them and give up...are we talking "learned helplessness" in those situations? []

Her obsevations about disciplinary contact in the muzzle area is spot on, IMO.

 
Although I haven't actually taken the time to read this link yet, I am going to guess that I probably agree. My dog became much more anxious with the GL, even though I followed the right steps of introducing it and making it a completely positive experience. I could see she was a little on edge, when she took treats she was really grabby (I've read this is a sign of anxiety in dogs).
 
I think some dogs aren't bothered much by the head halters, at least I've seen some that don't appear at all upset by them. Mine is quite (emotionally) sensitive and it upset me to see her so resigned on walks. I switched to the Sporn harness and I'm thrilled. We still have to work on proper loose leash walking with the Sporn, but at least she's not choking herself or yanking me off my feet while doig so.

I think the 'learned helplessness' comment above was perhaps sarcastic. Which is unfortunate. But I don't think it was that far off base - that's what I read in my dog with the head halter on - it's like she gives up.