pit bull, dog aggression, and obsession with ball???

Awsomedog:  But see that is my point when we're talking aggression. What is natural, and what by our actions or lack of allow aggression to grow out of control?  If I want a non aggressive dog I must *show* the dog there's never a reason to be aggressive accept for defending ones self. which means I *have to be there* to stop it, and, want to stop it. That's my decision, if yours is to allow the behavior that's your right. But we can't then complain about the behavior. I'll deal with the critters if I know it helps my dog to live a non aggressive life. And ok, while the frog thing is funny, lots of things dogs do are cute are funny, but that doesn't mean we have to allow it.

DPU:  It is a better to show a foster dog to the public without teeth puncture scabs on the head.  Very noticeable when the dog is petted.  I have describe aggression situation but I do stop it and definitely do not let it grow to be out of control.  The 3rd scenario with the Pittie mix happened once and because of how I handle the situation, it has not happened since.  In the process of getting control, some moments got away from me, which is normal in establishing limitations and boundaries.
   For Drizzle, the Great Dane there is an allowance for personal entertainment reason.  There is the trade-off of increased security but this allowance does not spill into the other dog's behavior.
   As part of the field Pointer's health recovery, it was very important for her recovery to know what her job is…and that is pointing and hunting birds.  I did work a lot with this dog to bring out her breed instinct and that involved live/dead birds and shaping her to point.  She did me proud when she brought her first bird to me and laid it at me feet.  Good girl.

Awsomedog:  And I believe you, not every dog that kills small animals will become aggressive towards dogs or humans. It's the ones *that do* become aggressive we know shouldn't be allowed to let that aggression grow. Does that make sinse?

DPU:  Absolutely correct and I take responsibility for the extra aggression allowed for Drizzle even though I can regress it if I choose.

Awsomedog:  I've found if you learn your dogs you can always tell just the moment before play can go wrong. That's when I step in.

DPU:  Yes, it takes time and incidences have to occur before just the moment can be identified.  It gets more complicated when the pack is changing with new members coming in when old members are adopted.  When a new member is introduced to the pack, the old relationships of the member can and do change.  So just the moment focus is on multiple dogs.

Awsomedog:  Unstable aggression is when a dog attacks a dog it doesn't know that's doing nothing to it, or attacks one of it's own pack members, And here is where I know first hand, *that* aggression can be stopped and can even go completely away.

DPU:  Can you clarify unstable aggression?  I interpret unstable aggression as Sudden Rage Syndrome, a SRS dog.  I connect the two because of the use of the word "unstable” and I presume unpredictable.  I have experience with this, a foster and indirectly by another foster family.  The organization's approach to the "onset” was a Doggie Bootcamp where the dog lives and breathes with a trainer 24/7 for 21 days, a $3,000 value.  That worked for one but not the other.


I have stated my observations of different levels of aggression from the aggressor and agressee side.  Moving now to resource guarding.  I don't have a problem with this because I control the resource and its abundance.  I do have a problem which is new to me and I am working through it.  The resource being guarded is me and the aggressor has caused reactive behavior (fear) in the aggressee.  This is a hard one because the aggressee is in conflict with the want to be by me and the fear of the aggressor when the aggressor is by me.  Any comments here?

ORIGINAL: DPU.
DPU:  Can you clarify unstable aggression?  I interpret unstable aggression as Sudden Rage Syndrome, a SRS dog.  I connect the two because of the use of the word "unstable” and I presume unpredictable.  I have experience with this, a foster and indirectly by another foster family.  The organization's approach to the "onset” was a Doggie Bootcamp where the dog lives and breathes with a trainer 24/7 for 21 days, a $3,000 value.  That worked for one but not the other.


I have stated my observations of different levels of aggression from the aggressor and agressee side.  Moving now to resource guarding.  I don't have a problem with this because I control the resource and its abundance.  I do have a problem which is new to me and I am working through it.  The resource being guarded is me and the aggressor has caused reactive behavior (fear) in the aggressee.  This is a hard one because the aggressee is in conflict with the want to be by me and the fear of the aggressor when the aggressor is by me.  Any comments here?

So these are 2 things I'd like to discuss first chance I get. I have a crazy full booked weeknd, so it may not be until Monday.  Now it's time for dogs.

Peace

I have had a few times where I thought my dog wanted to react and I went straight into training mode.

  Quickly move your dog so the other dog canot get into his space, short leash, the dog by your side, do some quick (and short) back and forths, turns, lefts and rights.

It moves the dog's mind in another direction.  It breaks the fixation and gives them something else to focus on.

As soon as you see the signs, get the dog moving.  My dog will slow his steps, move his head forward, ears up, and begin "the stare". I don't allow him to get to the stare.

 I prevent him from completing the full chain of behavior that will lead to a reaction.

I can't remember which trainer it was, but she said, and I am total paraphrasing here,....change the dog's body signals and you change their frame of mind.

Personally, I think it is crucial to get in as many turns as possible and as quickly as possible.  According to the calming signals theory, it helps to calm them.

Anyway...this is the course of action I use if I think mine is even thinking of reacting.  It seems to work.  But, as we all know. what works on one dog will not work on another.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca



OK...I'll give you that, there usually are signs but more often than not, there isn't.
Not signs that those who aren't experts on reading body language and posturing would be able to see.
When Ella goes into "the mode" (ha, that's what I call it), she stops and stiffens, and I cannot really describe it, but I've seen it SOOOO many times now that I know what to look for. If she were off leash, I'd have about 1/2 a second before she'd be TOO deep into "the mode" to get her out.

ORIGINAL: JM

I have had a few times where I thought my dog wanted to react and I went straight into training mode.

Quickly move your dog so the other dog canot get into his space, short leash, the dog by your side, do some quick (and short) back and forths, turns, lefts and rights.

It moves the dog's mind in another direction. It breaks the fixation and gives them something else to focus on.

As soon as you see the signs, get the dog moving. My dog will slow his steps, move his head forward, ears up, and begin "the stare". I don't allow him to get to the stare.

I prevent him from completing the full chain of behavior that will lead to a reaction.

I can't remember which trainer it was, but she said, and I am total paraphrasing here,....change the dog's body signals and you change their frame of mind.

Personally, I think it is crucial to get in as many turns as possible and as quickly as possible. According to the calming signals theory, it helps to calm them.

Anyway...this is the course of action I use if I think mine is even thinking of reacting. It seems to work. But, as we all know. what works on one dog will not work on another.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca



OK...I'll give you that, there usually are signs but more often than not, there isn't.
Not signs that those who aren't experts on reading body language and posturing would be able to see.
When Ella goes into "the mode" (ha, that's what I call it), she stops and stiffens, and I cannot really describe it, but I've seen it SOOOO many times now that I know what to look for. If she were off leash, I'd have about 1/2 a second before she'd be TOO deep into "the mode" to get her out.

I TOTALLY agree.
But sometimes I don't catch her steps to reaction soon enough because they happen SOOO fast.
Sometimes it's harder to be quicker than a pit bull.
And other times (like one of my above posts), I misjudge my ability to distract and redirect in time.

Become a scanner.  See the dog before your dog does and prepare yourself to look for any signs of reactivity  or even fixation.  It all begins with fixation.

I read that owner scanning makes a dog nervous.  I am a scanner, so I worried about that a bit.

Then I read that some dogs are natural born scanners.  Mine is, and I can't say I blame him.

So, I think owner scanning calms some dogs instead of making them nervous.

If mine sees me scanning, he goes about his business.  He seems to know "mom is on the job".

You can usually tell a scanner.  They will stop, sniff, maybe mark, and slowly look all around before moving on.

If you see a loose dog, you should get your dog to a safe place (if possible)  no matter if your dog is acting like he will react or not.

Just assume that all hell is going to break loose and move your dog accordingly.  As calmly as possible of course

ORIGINAL: chewbecca



I TOTALLY agree.
But sometimes I don't catch her steps to reaction soon enough because they happen SOOO fast.
Sometimes it's harder to be quicker than a pit bull.
And other times (like one of my above posts), I misjudge my ability to distract and redirect in time.

We've got a scanner in our study.  It's also a fax machine and printer.  But I can appreciate that might not be a lot of help.  Sorry.

Chuff, you are now, officially,  on my list of people to beat with a club.

[sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

We've got a scanner in our study.  It's also a fax machine and printer.  But I can appreciate that might not be a lot of help.  Sorry.

I'm assuming that a scanner is someone who simply scopes out the surrounding area and is alert to all happenings in the environment before the dog is, right?

My dog is DEFINITELY a scanner, if I'm thinking of the right thing.

It's not that she scopes things out BEFORE she sniffs and pees, when we walk out the door she's sniffing the air, perking her ears and looking at everything all around before going forward.

In fact, the only time I normally catch sight of something before she does is when she is sniffing the ground or going forward off in Ellaland (temporarily). It all depends on how much she's been worked before I take her outside for a walk. If I haven't tired her out with a great game of fetch/catch for an hour or so to the point that her ears are red and she's panting, then she'll be WAY more alert outside and way more reactive as well.

Yeah.  I think you got it.

You need to become just as an avid scanner as she is.  It is your job to always watch her back.

If I scoot mine on, he makes no bones about high stepping along. He knows that I have seen something that he hasn't.

And I also trust him.  The other day I was wanting to go up this wooded hill and I could tell by watching him that he could smell something that I couldn't see. And he wanted absolutely nothing to do with it.

So we headed to the home front.

One time I almost walked him right into the clutches of a huge loose rot, thinking I would be fearless leader and make all of the decsisions.

I am so glad that I listened to him. It could have been fatal.

There was once a time when I thought that all was right and well in my world as long as my dog was leashed . 

Not so anymore.

I don't want to freak you out, but I think you are aware of this...

These days, if anything  happens, your dog will get blamed due to it's breed. Flat out.  It's a done deal.

Same with mine.  But more so due to his size.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

I'm assuming that a scanner is someone who simply scopes out the surrounding area and is alert to all happenings in the environment before the dog is, right?

My dog is DEFINITELY a scanner, if I'm thinking of the right thing.

It's not that she scopes things out BEFORE she sniffs and pees, when we walk out the door she's sniffing the air, perking her ears and looking at everything all around before going forward.

In fact, the only time I normally catch sight of something before she does is when she is sniffing the ground or going forward off in Ellaland (temporarily). It all depends on how much she's been worked before I take her outside for a walk. If I haven't tired her out with a great game of fetch/catch for an hour or so to the point that her ears are red and she's panting, then she'll be WAY more alert outside and way more reactive as well.

What kind of dog do you have??


Oh, and I SO know that my dog will be blamed if things happen.

This is why on our walks I carry the stuff with me that I do.
I have NO qualms with spraying my dog with pepper spray or using a break stick or kicking her if I have to to get her off another dog.
AS AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, THAT IS.
It probably shouldn't ever come to that. But just in case, I have an extra leash, an extra collar, a break stick, direct stop (mainly for smaller curious dogs who like to follow us), and pepper spray. If an off leash dog REFUSES to leave us alone, I have several options available. First my dog will be tied with her head up against the closest fence I can find so that SHE cannot attack a loose dog. Second, I'll have an extra leash AND collar to grab the loose dog and tie it to the fence so that I can get MY dog and run home. HOPEFULLY if the situation ever arises, I'll be able to think clear enough to be able to do all of that!


Yeah. Wish me luck.

click on my JM and you will see him.  He is supposedly husky/shepard mix.  And even though he is lovable, he can come across as intimidating and mean.

Don't ever...I mean EVER...put your dog at an advantage when it comes to loose dogs....or any dogs acting stupid while in her space.

If you do use pepper spray make sure it doesn't come back on you or your dog.  Don't spray your own dog.  For no reason. Ever!

Zeus was walking along, on leash, with the SO one day, when out of the blue, came a big golden off of someone's porch and attacked him.

Now whether it was a good ideal or not, I dunno, who has time to think in these situations....but the SO loosed Zeus and joined in with the fight, kicking the crap out of the dog.  Then the SO got angry at the owner for screaming at him about kicking his dog, and flew into him.

Bad situation all around.  But men, women and even dogs, have this instinct to protect their families. 

What do you do but join in on the fight?

So, if your dog is attacked, be prepared to fight as hard as she does. Trust me, your mother instincts will kick in, for better or worse.

In that last episode with Zeus and the husky, I was lopping things upside that brutes head.  And he would not back off.

Zeus is an old man at 12 and this dog had at least 30 pounds on him and he was quite young.

Zeus was in a frenzy the likes that I have never seen, and I was fixing to turn him loose, but I had a brick in my hand ready to roll on that dogs head.....all the while thinking of the gun I keep upstairs in my house. ahhh man, the things that go through your head.

Bad bad situation.

I was scared too death.  But some guys came out and broke the whole thing up and saved us.

I never trust The Universe anymore, not when it comes to protecting my dog.

That's my job.

ETA: dogs should not be allowed in your dogs space while she is on lead.  Some dogs cannot handle it.

And that's okay.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

What kind of dog do you have??


Oh, and I SO know that my dog will be blamed if things happen.

This is why on our walks I carry the stuff with me that I do.
I have NO qualms with spraying my dog with pepper spray or using a break stick or kicking her if I have to to get her off another dog.
AS AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, THAT IS.
It probably shouldn't ever come to that. But just in case, I have an extra leash, an extra collar, a break stick, direct stop (mainly for smaller curious dogs who like to follow us), and pepper spray. If an off leash dog REFUSES to leave us alone, I have several options available. First my dog will be tied with her head up against the closest fence I can find so that SHE cannot attack a loose dog. Second, I'll have an extra leash AND collar to grab the loose dog and tie it to the fence so that I can get MY dog and run home. HOPEFULLY if the situation ever arises, I'll be able to think clear enough to be able to do all of that!


Yeah. Wish me luck.

ORIGINAL: DPU.


DPU:  Can you clarify unstable aggression?  I interpret unstable aggression as Sudden Rage Syndrome, a SRS dog.  I connect the two because of the use of the word "unstable” and I presume unpredictable.  I have experience with this, a foster and indirectly by another foster family.  The organization's approach to the "onset” was a Doggie Bootcamp where the dog lives and breathes with a trainer 24/7 for 21 days, a $3,000 value.  That worked for one but not the other.

Without going into SRS, unstable aggression comes from dogs who's owners have raised them to be this way. It's that simple. It may not be the owners who have the dog now, in the case of rescues it can be who owned them before. And the problem continues because the new owners don't know what to do. As far as "Doggie Bootcamp where the dog lives and breathes with a trainer 24/7 for 21 days, a $3,000 value.  That worked for one but not the other." goes, some boot camps are run like boot camps which is not what every dog needs. Example; why would I have a dog who's dog aggressive live with a human 24/7 instead of dogs? IMO it doesn't make sense.

I have stated my observations of different levels of aggression from the aggressor and agressee side.  Moving now to resource guarding.  I don't have a problem with this because I control the resource and its abundance.  I do have a problem which is new to me and I am working through it.  The resource being guarded is me and the aggressor has caused reactive behavior (fear) in the aggressee.  This is a hard one because the aggressee is in conflict with the want to be by me and the fear of the aggressor when the aggressor is by me.  Any comments here?

I guess my first question is, why allow the aggressor to think it's his or her place to guard you to begin with, or that you even think the behavior is ok. The first thing I'd do is stop sharing affection with the aggressor. I would only give affection when earned by the aggressor, meaning, no aggression. If I'm not understanding you, and I'm off tract here, let me know.

I thought that every aggression is unestable behavior unless is a trained dog that is aggressive on command and stops when you tell him but of course thats far from being a problem

Something just came to mind that may be important for you.  I am pretty sure that I read that calming signals were bred out of some dogs.

Your breed being one of them.

You may want to check into that and clicker train some calming signals into her.

Or if she is hip to calming signals maybe incorporate them into commands.

Bowing is a calming signal, as is a yawn.

If she is out and about and starts acting a bit stressed or excited, stop and give her commands for a few bows, yawns, etc.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

What kind of dog do you have??


Oh, and I SO know that my dog will be blamed if things happen.

This is why on our walks I carry the stuff with me that I do.
I have NO qualms with spraying my dog with pepper spray or using a break stick or kicking her if I have to to get her off another dog.
AS AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, THAT IS.
It probably shouldn't ever come to that. But just in case, I have an extra leash, an extra collar, a break stick, direct stop (mainly for smaller curious dogs who like to follow us), and pepper spray. If an off leash dog REFUSES to leave us alone, I have several options available. First my dog will be tied with her head up against the closest fence I can find so that SHE cannot attack a loose dog. Second, I'll have an extra leash AND collar to grab the loose dog and tie it to the fence so that I can get MY dog and run home. HOPEFULLY if the situation ever arises, I'll be able to think clear enough to be able to do all of that!


Yeah. Wish me luck.

I entered this thread to introduce a couple of different angles to the OP, Chewbecca.  In my experience there are different levels of aggression applied in a situation and different reasons for aggression.  Defensiveness, Protection, Breed Instinct, Resource Guarding, Fear, Owner Reinforced, and Mental Illness.  The dog had some situation in its past that cause the aggressive reaction and as stated was allowed to continue.  I think it is important to identify the type of aggression and also know or have a best guess of its source.  If you understand the happenings, then you can effectively deal with it.  And I do believe extinction is possible.  If I am reading things right here, you all are saying that aggression is aggression, unstable, and there is one cookie-cutter method to extinguish/control/manage, don#%92t allow it.  Each incidence is different and you have to address each in order to extinguish the whole.
 
SRS should always be a consideration since it is so gradual and often misdiagnosed until the last incidence occurs.  The Doggie Bootcamps are my organization last ditch effort to turn a rescue dog around.  You pay for the behaviorist/trainer to have dedicated focus on that dog and to address any and all behavior issues.  That#%92s what human 24/7 means.
 
To expand on my current problem with me being a guarded resource, the incidence happened about a month ago.  I wrestle with the Hound and Pittie mix, meaning I get on all fours and rough play with the dogs.  I know for sure there was no pain involved and during one of these high social play, the Pittie Mix attacked the Hound.  When I get on all fours, which means the start of wrestling play, the Hound takes off and the Pittie Mix plays.  Since I know the source of the Hound#%92s fear, I know how to guide the Hound to get over the fear.  It#%92s the Pittie Mix side that I am having a hard time with.  If I am successful with the Hound and bring them together for play with me, I risk not reading ‘just the moment before#%92 and recreating the previous incidence.  Not willing to put the Hound through this to train Pittie Mix.  Now, this is the only situation where this happened and only one time.  Both dogs can sit before me and I can give affection to one while the other waits and does not react.  Tis “only situation” is a known issue with the Pittie mix and I need to address it.
 
BTW, am I am the only one not understanding what JM is trying to communicate.  Scanner?  Calmness?  Redirecting?  Can someone explain how this directly addresses the aggression issue in a dog?