Rules, boundaries, and limitations

Someone on a complete other forum was oo-pooing crate training to prevent unwanted chewing or destructiveness behaviors and just kept saying "just train your dog, train your dog" like it's just totally that simple to train a dog to not eat the couch when you're out of the house, if you have a couch-eating dog. Turns out this person has had exactly one dog in her entire life and that dog just happens to be a reliable when alone dog. Some dogs just are. My akita mix was quite reliable in the house, with really not a whole lot of training for it. Marlowe is so-so but he seems to set a bee-line for like the one thing in the whole house that he really, really should not eat. Conrad is disasterous uncrated because of his SA. If I still only had that akita mix and no other dog experience, I too might look down my nose on the idea of managing the environment. Getting a dog with seperation anxiety cured that right quick. And getting another dog who's highly intelligent and curious pretty much cemented my feelings on the issue. Managing the dog's environment is key.
 
When we first brought Marlowe home he was never alone unless he was confined. The few times we slipped up on that, we paid the price in chewed cords, a chewed mp3 player (!). But that really paid off after a few months. As I type now Marlowe and Conrad are both elsewhere in the house doing whatever (probably sleeping) and I don't have to worry about it. Marlowe hasn't chewed anything inappropriate in months.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Someone on a complete other forum was oo-pooing crate training to prevent unwanted chewing or destructiveness behaviors and just kept saying "just train your dog, train your dog" like it's just totally that simple to train a dog to not eat the couch when you're out of the house, if you have a couch-eating dog. Turns out this person has had exactly one dog in her entire life and that dog just happens to be a reliable when alone dog. Some dogs just are.

Yes, and the first time that person gets a field Lab pup, she will wish for someone to deliver that crate to her door...[sm=2cents.gif]
One dog does not a dog trainer make LOL.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Well if I had a problem with a dog chewing a couch, for example, that dog wouldn't be unsupervised around the couch.  If I couldn't supervise the dog, he/she'd be crated.  I think that's part of managing the environment and setting your dog up to succeed, not to fail. 

I understand your viewpoint but I think differently-as you can imagine.  Redirection isn't just about giving the dog a reward to redirect him, at least not for me.  It's more of a "Hey, don't chew on that, chew on this instead...this is much better."  Besides, I am still of the mindset that controlling resources means that EVERTHING belongs to me unless I specifically give it to the dog.

So, IMO, redirection works much better for me. 

As far as my dog asking me what he's supposed to be doing instead...well that's one of the reasons I have such an independent breed of dog.  I actually like seeing what they will think of next.  They generally won't ask me, inside the condo, or outside in a contained area, what to do next.  They figure it out very quickly.  Outside it's wrestle and run, inside it's usually sleep or chew or play with the cat.

Ok let's pretend you have a couch -chewing dog, you say that you would create him because he can't be unsupervised, that means that i would have to put him in his create everytime i want to take a nap, or a shower, or i have to be in the same room as him always, he cant get up and go to drink some water at the kitchen because i dont know if he will go and eat the couch again, if he is not in the same room as me he cant be anywhere else but the create?

It might seem like i want to prove my point but actually i never had a dog that way and i'm courious how it works

Maybe my dog chews the couch because is trying to tell me something "hey dude i need more excersice because i have pent up energy and this is a way for me to release it", by having her in a create i am doing totally the opposite of what my dog is asking me, did i solve the probloem? no, the problem is still there and will be forever, i just decided not to let the problem happening by putting her in a create

I know dogs are not humans but is like if i'm a kid, if i was almost run over by a car while crossing the street and my parents are "setting me up for success" by taking me inside the house, that means not letting me out of the house by myself unless they are with me; well i will rather 100 times better for them to teach me to cross the street (those would be my rules before crossing, boundries and limitations)  that not letting me out of the house by myself ever again, they just have to tell me "this is the way it is" and i wont loose my freedom

If you give rules, boundries and limitations to your kids why not to your dogs? of course they can make mistakes, they werent born knowing right from wrong, but i will be there to let them know the difference, like i said before, how the dog will know chewing a couch is wrong if you never told him? what is wrong with letting him know?, that can take you a couple times, putting him in a create for every single time he is not with you because he cant be unsupervised and you didnt want to do it that way will take you more effort and time

ORIGINAL: espencer


Ok let's pretend you have a couch -chewing dog, you say that you would create him because he can't be unsupervised, that means that i would have to put him in his create everytime i want to take a nap, or a shower, or i have to be in the same room as him always, he cant get up and go to drink some water at the kitchen because i dont know if he will go and eat the couch again, if he is not in the same room as me he cant be anywhere else but the create?

It might seem like i want to prove my point but actually i never had a dog that way and i'm courious how it works

Maybe my dog chews the couch because is trying to tell me something "hey dude i need more excersice because i have pent up energy and this is a way for me to release it", by having her in a create i am doing totally the opposite of what my dog is asking me, did i solve the probloem? no, the problem is still there and will be forever, i just decided not to let the problem happening by putting her in a create

I know dogs are not humans but is like if i'm a kid, if i was almost run over by a car while crossing the street and my parents are "setting me up for success" by taking me inside the house, that means not letting me out of the house by myself unless they are with me; well i will rather 100 times better for them to teach me to cross the street (those would be my rules before crossing, boundries and limitations)  that not letting me out of the house by myself ever again, they just have to tell me "this is the way it is" and i wont loose my freedom

If you give rules, boundries and limitations to your kids why not to your dogs? of course they can make mistakes, they werent born knowing right from wrong, but i will be there to let them know the difference, like i said before, how the dog will know chewing a couch is wrong if you never told him? what is wrong with letting him know?, that can take you a couple times, putting him in a create for every single time he is not with you because he cant be unsupervised and you didnt want to do it that way will take you more effort and time

espencer, you make a good point.  I've never had a couch eating dog either.  If I did, and from what I've heard from people that do have couch eating dogs, the couch eating almost never occurs while they are at home.  Also the couch eating usually occurs during a teething period or due to SA. 

But say we have a relentless couch chewer, who will chew the couch and try to eat his way through the couch even if I'm right there, and that for some odd reason my setting of boundaries has not worked.  Yes I would crate the dog at ANY TIME that I couldn't supervise the dog.  The dog would be either tethered to me or crated while inside, OR I would totally restrict access to the room where the couches are.

At least that's my take on it.

Setting a dog up for success does not mean keeping the dog away from the world.  (And your example truly doesn't apply-kids aren't dogs and almost getting hit by a car isn't a behavior)  Setting rules and boundaries that ensure success does not mean avoidance of all situations where the dog may misbehave-though I can see how you might interpret it as such.  Setting your dog up for success means managing the environment so your dog can make the appropriate choice.  Putting an airtight lid on the food bin, keeping the front door closed-not leaving it wide open, not giving too much freedom to a too young puppy too soon, putting up a babygate that restricts access to the room with the couch inside, not leaving a steak on the counter while I take out the trash, not leaving two sighthounds loose with my cat while I'm not home and other things of this nature.

By setting the dog up for success I am not tempting the dog beyond the dog's means to refuse.  I, the owner, am setting up the physical environment to aid in the reinforcement of my rules and boundaries. 

From your last paragraph it sounds like you believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that I don't correct my dogs.  Where on earth do you get that idea?  When I redirect inappropriate behavior there is a verbal correction, I will use body blocks, posture and tone of voice.  What kind of correction do you use?

So, if I follow your logic, according to your post- managing the environment is ineffective, right?  But correcting the dog a "couple times" will work?

I also think managing the environment is looked at in this way. Like maybe some people keep dogs from situations in which they don't know how to act, instead of teaching them how to act.

I see managing the environmentt as not allowing the dogs in these situations alone. 

They need guidance and leadership until they can handle it on their own.



Ed; Setting a dog up for success does not mean keeping the dog away from the world.  (And your example truly doesn't apply-kids aren't dogs and almost getting hit by a car isn't a behavior)  Setting rules and boundaries that ensure success does not mean avoidance of all situations where the dog may misbehave

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

How do you feel about establishing boundaries by redirection...?? (ie "that's no good to chew on, here-chew this instead.)

I feel that will teach the dog to keep chewing what he does not suppose to so he can have the "trade for" item, "if i chew the couch they will give me the other stuff i like more", what happens when you are not there to trade? the key is just letting the dog know what is right and what is wrong, he does not have to have something specific to do in exchange, people say "well if i dont want him to do something then he is gonna ask me what he should be doing instead" but he does not have to do something else instead, just stop, if the dog chews your couch you just teach him that the couch is yours, not his, and he cant be doing nothing with another member things

 
Not effective IME.  Dogs, (particularly puppies) HAVE to chew on SOMETHING, so it's not just a case of "just stop".   They need a period of re-direction otheriwse they will continue to chew on inappropriate items regardless.  This is counter productive because 1. The habit becomes ingrained and 2. The dog learns that your boundaries don't mean anything.
 
Once you have established what it is OK for them to chew on, then I agree, you just put the boundary there without the trade, so the dog doesn't learn to go and chew on the sofa or your hands to get a chewie out of you.  If you've done the groundwork (re-direction) and you have made it easy for the dog to succeed (in this instance, lots of chewies freely available and out-of-bounds things out of reach wherever possible, confinement when not supervised) then the dog will go and find something OK to chew on.
 
I use this basic principal to teach everything the dogs need to know, walking nicely on a lead, house training, everything.  In time, the dog doesn't chew the sofa because he never got in the habit of doing it.  Just like a well house trained dog doesn't mess in the house because his owner supervised him closely, managed his environment etc..... not because the dog got slapped, leash popped, or "Tsssst"ed at him for doing it inside.  He gradually earns more freedom as he becomes more trustworthy.  Mostly, I think that if you do it right you don't need to correct, Tssst or say no, or if you have to it will be very rarely and because you haven't had to do it a lot the lightest of corrections are meaningful to the dog because he has not got accustomed to them.

I think it may be managing the environment vs. putting the dog in the environment then correcting it.

I think you may have stated the whole philosphy in another post...allowing the dog to do something then correcting it for doing it.

If you think about it, that too could be considered as permissiveness to some.

In my situation I supply enough chew toys, but if I see the dog trying to chew an item not approved by me, then, I will let the dog know.
 
IMO, it's a fine line between re-directing and the dog trying to get what it wants, example, the dogs chews couch, re-direct, give chew toy, what exactly is the dog learning in this first phase?

Even though I believe in setting boundaries, such as Shadow will move if he is in my spot on the double recliner, there are other times I just let something go. I pick my "battles." Out in the yard, he can be a chewing maniac and I've had 3 dead plastic lawn sprinklers to show for it. In the house, he can chew on a toy and that's fine. He can chew on a rawhide and that's okay. Once recently, the cat got close while he was chewing on it and he got guardy. So, I put the thing outside. After a while, the cat learns what is his and to leave it alone and he learns that I will manage the environment if there's a problem. And yes, I can take the rawhide from him. Sometimes, he brings it to me, offering the leader first chew. It may not be perfect but, as a leader, I only step in when necessary.

I have just gone through setting a 'new' boundary with my dog. In Nov. we totally re did our family room. New furniture, new rugs etc. Previously the dog was allowed on the furniture and could have a bone (on a towel) on the rug. I was very concerned about retraining him to stay off the furniture and no eating in the room. To my amazement a few days of supervision and a calm but firm "No!" at any attempt to get on the furniture or bring a bone into the room, has worked like a charm. I have not had to redirect him or deny his access to the room. I thought it would be a lot harder and I was prepared to put up a gate if need be. But it all worked out!

ORIGINAL: denise m

I have just gone through setting a 'new' boundary with my dog. In Nov. we totally re did our family room. New furniture, new rugs etc. Previously the dog was allowed on the furniture and could have a bone (on a towel) on the rug. I was very concerned about retraining him to stay off the furniture and no eating in the room. To my amazement a few days of supervision and a calm but firm "No!" at any attempt to get on the furniture or bring a bone into the room, has worked like a charm. I have not had to redirect him or deny his access to the room. I thought it would be a lot harder and I was prepared to put up a gate if need be. But it all worked out!

That's great! []

"No" is the boundary word that worked for you. That was the first boundary word I was taught to use by humans. "Eh", "eh-eh", and "hey" just came more naturally, so I switched to those. I still don't use "shhh" or "tsst", just a personal preference for what feels natural. I learned "no" from both my mom and from my neighbor when I helped him train his lab pup.

One thing that I've found helpful is to not use the dog's name as a boundary word, because sometimes is just means "come". Helpful also not to be overusing a boundary word until you become "white" noise and a tuned out like a constantly hovering and over-instructive mother, by her 3 year old toddler.

I've changed over the years to also keep a raised pitch, angry, nervous, or intense tone out of my voice, kick it back in intensity and either use the word very matter of factly or with a more serious (I mean it) tone, but no more anger or intensity to instruct or prove a point is needed. You convey more of a leadership "energy" [], if you keep emotion out of it.

Yep, "calm and assertive"...that's what it means. []

The setting of boundaries is what I would call a "social" method which is best used through direct communication and instruction before or during a behavior. If the dog has already performed the behavior, then you are reacting to this behavior and using training to positively reinforce (+R) or positively punish (+P) - (with -R & -P aside for the moment). In other words a reward or a correction following the act, and the dog associating "cause = effect".

Most people use both social direction and training, depending on the what's going on in any given moment. Distracting and giving an alternative is not without value either, especially with puppies.

One other thing that I've noticed CM use is to claim the couch as his. I get what he is doing using what a dog understands. A couch is just a piece of furniture where your dog lives with you, He doesn't know it is possessed by you until you as the leader, show him. So, I get that and it has proved a useful way to look at things and works well for me.

Crates are helpful in toilet training, helpful with puppies and new shelter dogs, giving dogs a spot of their own especially at night, preventing destruction during a training and socialy instructional hase, helpful for people who work, keeping two dogs from not being left alone unsupervised, and to help prevent separation anxiety from getting started in the first place. They are helpful in certain situations to keep the entire situation successful. IMO

The use of crates and crate training is a whole discussion all by itself. []