Rules, boundaries, and limitations

    • Gold Top Dog

    Rules, boundaries, and limitations

    When dogs live in our home with us as family members, they are part of a social group which may contain other dogs, children, additional pets, and visiting guests.
     
    As human leaders, it is our resposibility to raise both our dogs and children to be functional, balanced, and safe members of society. This is first learned at home before we ever go out into the "real" world where we have less control over what other beings might do when we encounter them.
     
    Although I do recommend training a dog and teaching specific commands and behaviors through the use of positive reinforcement based methods, there are some areas where we are directing and addressing behaviors in a more "social" way.
     
    One of the primary functions of a leader in our dog's life (once we have already seen to their basic needs for food, shelter, nurturing youngsters, and companionship) is to teach them social skills including which behaviors are appropriate, and which are not.
     
    A boundary line can be drawn with a word, eye contact, and/or a body block without ever touching the dog, unless the dog is already very messed up and does not respect humans as leaders.
     
    Many trainers and owners naturally find they use "eh" or "eh-eh" as a verbal boundary of "stop what you are doing", "don't go there", or "don't go past this point".
     
    What fascinates me about this, is this seems to be a natural and universal thing to do. I think some mothers just use this very instinctively.
     
    Cesar has mentioned that he uses "shhh", because that was what his mother used. He uses "hey" as a more serious tone. I thought "shhh" was very weird when I first heard it, and then I realised it was his version of "eh" or "eh-eh". But I also use "hey" as my more serious tone.
     
    I find that most of the dogs I've worked with understand this form of communication almost instinctively. The ones I've worked with who do not respect humans, have not been taught boundaries, and have never heard this before usually catch on very quickly.
     
    A body block, eye contact, a slight bump with the leash, or a touch can also communicate a boundary from what I've personally experienced.
     
    I find it is easier to set a boundary, than it is to teach a specific command. I am not asking the dog for a specific behavior in the strictly training sense. I am communicating a boundary of "stop what you are doing", "don't go there", or "don't move past this point" in a more social way as the dog's leader.
     
    [:D]
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for the link espenser!
     
    I started this thread by mostly focusing on the "boundary" aspect of "rules, boundaries, and limitations" and what I both personally use, have seen others use, and what I've seen and read about what Cesar uses.
     
    The "rules" can be learned by a dog through the setting of these boundaries and instruction by the leader before a dog escalates. It is mostly about a dog learning what is and is not acceptable behavior.
     
    The "limitations" part reminds me of when we choose to start, stop, or direct an activity. This may also come into play to help keep a more needy or high-strung and/or dependant dog from heading down the SA path by limiting the amount of time a dog is constantly with the owner.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't find any of what you mentioned to be confrontational, and it probably works well for your dog, but I think what bothers me is that I hear non dog savvy people all the time saying tssstt to their dogs because they heard Cesar do it on the show - yet all they are doing is substituting some noise for the ubiquitous "no", and not training the dog. 
    With my own dogs, I find it has always been easier for me to teach the dog what to do, rather than try to prevent him from doing all manner of dog-normal behaviors that simply bother humans.  So, if my dog is sniffing by the side of the road, and I want him to walk with me, I just say "leave it - let's go" and off we go.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    I don't find any of what you mentioned to be confrontational, and it probably works well for your dog, but I think what bothers me is that I hear non dog savvy people all the time saying tssstt to their dogs because they heard Cesar do it on the show - yet all they are doing is substituting some noise for the ubiquitous "no", and not training the dog. 
    With my own dogs, I find it has always been easier for me to teach the dog what to do, rather than try to prevent him from doing all manner of dog-normal behaviors that simply bother humans.  So, if my dog is sniffing by the side of the road, and I want him to walk with me, I just say "leave it - let's go" and off we go.


    Thats great Anne, they both work fine, they are just different, just like my underwear, i have different kinds but all of them are for the same purpose [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    A boundary line can be drawn with a word, eye contact, and/or a body block without ever touching the dog, unless the dog is already very messed up and does not respect humans as leaders.

     
    For clarification purposes, are you saying that a dog that does respect humans as leaders will heed the word, eye contact and/or body block all the time?
     
    The reason I seek this clarification is that there are dogs that respect THEIR humans as leaders but not other humans.  And there are dogs that can get very focused in various drives that actually cannot be distracted from them once fully engaged.  (Scent hounds on a trail, sighthounds on the run, a non-schutzhund trained guard dog in full defensive drive, etc...)
     
      A body block, eye contact, a slight bump with the leash, or a touch can also communicate a boundary from what I've personally experienced.

    I find it is easier to set a boundary, than it is to teach a specific command. I am not asking the dog for a specific behavior in the strictly training sense. I am communicating a boundary of "stop what you are doing", "don't go there", or "don't move past this point" in a more social way as the dog's leader.


     
    I agree with you here.  Establishing boundaries can be done with minimal effort-but the key is consistency. 
     
    How do you feel about establishing boundaries by redirection...?? (ie "that's no good to chew on, here-chew this instead.)
    • Gold Top Dog
    what bothers me is that I hear non dog savvy people all the time saying tssstt to their dogs because they heard Cesar do it on the show -

     
    I use the "Psssst" when I've got Xerxes on the long line and I'm telling him to change direction.  It's a "psssst!"  and a hand signal.  Sort of a cue to look at me and I'll tell you where the next squirrel is at.
     
    Way before CM I used it as one of several recalls I had with the Akita.  "Pssst" meant "come over here but quietly"  "Come" meant here, now!  And a throat clearing meant exactly the same- "Here! NOW!"
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    How do you feel about establishing boundaries by redirection...?? (ie "that's no good to chew on, here-chew this instead.)


    I feel that will teach the dog to keep chewing what he does not suppose to so he can have the "trade for" item, "if i chew the couch they will give me the other stuff i like more", what happens when you are not there to trade? the key is just letting the dog know what is right and what is wrong, he does not have to have something specific to do in exchange, people say "well if i dont want him to do something then he is gonna ask me what he should be doing instead" but he does not have to do something else instead, just stop, if the dog chews your couch you just teach him that the couch is yours, not his, and he cant be doing nothing with another member things
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: espencer

    I feel that will teach the dog to keep chewing what he does not suppose to so he can have the "trade for" item, "if i chew the couch they will give me the other stuff i like more", what happens when you are not there to trade? the key is just letting the dog know what is right and what is wrong, he does not have to have something specific to do in exchange, people say "well if i dont want him to do something then he is gonna ask me what he should be doing instead" but he does not have to do something else instead, just stop, if the dog chews your couch you just teach him that the couch is yours, not his, and he cant be doing nothing with another member things


     
    Well if I had a problem with a dog chewing a couch, for example, that dog wouldn't be unsupervised around the couch.  If I couldn't supervise the dog, he/she'd be crated.  I think that's part of managing the environment and setting your dog up to succeed, not to fail. 
     
    I understand your viewpoint but I think differently-as you can imagine.  Redirection isn't just about giving the dog a reward to redirect him, at least not for me.  It's more of a "Hey, don't chew on that, chew on this instead...this is much better."  Besides, I am still of the mindset that controlling resources means that EVERTHING belongs to me unless I specifically give it to the dog.
     
    So, IMO, redirection works much better for me. 

    As far as my dog asking me what he's supposed to be doing instead...well that's one of the reasons I have such an independent breed of dog.  I actually like seeing what they will think of next.  They generally won't ask me, inside the condo, or outside in a contained area, what to do next.  They figure it out very quickly.  Outside it's wrestle and run, inside it's usually sleep or chew or play with the cat.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ed, I agree with the concept of setting your dog up for success.  Dogs that are given too much freedom too soon are generally the ones that have problems with inappropriate chewing.  If the dog is never around the couch unsupervised, and you insist that he chew only appropriate chew objects while you are supervising him, then he eventually just chews the ok objects and does not learn that chewing the couch is acceptable.  Left to their own devices, especially in the second chewing phase, dogs treat everything as a chew toy. [:D]

    We run into the same thing with housetraining, which is often much harder for people than it needs to be.  I have never punished a dog for having an "accident" - I assume that accidents are MY fault for insufficiently supervising my dog.  As a result, my dogs learn right from day one that the toilet is outside, and that they will be crated when I can't directly watch them.  So, they basically never get the chance to make a mistake - I take them out every 2 hours, or after eating, drinking, waking, or playing.  I reward every correct response of toileting outside, and always use the same words for the functions.  My herders were trained immediately, and my hound (imagine getting a 2 year old intact male who thinks your living room is a toilet...) within a week.  I caught them doing it right repeatedly, and ignored the undesired response.  Sioux had less than three accidents, and Sequoyah only had one or two.  Maska had, I think, three or four, before we realized he really wasn't housetrained.  Now, they all eliminate on command.  So, basically, I set them up for success by supervising, crating, and rewarding, but not punishing (lest they become afraid to pee in front of the human). 
    I think humans spend far too much time figuring out how to correct bad behavior, and not enough time "catching the dog doing something right" or figuring out how to get the dog to repeat good behavior.  If they never get anything for the bad behavior (even correction) it will eventually go away if they are constantly being rewarded for an incompatible good behavior.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think managing the environment may be considered permissiveness to some.




    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: JM

    I think managing the environment may be considered permissiveness to some.


    How would you prevent the dog from eating the couch while you are at work?  Webcam & e-collar??? 
    Anyway, why is it whenever positive methods are mentioned that the word permissive creeps in?  I am probably the least permissive owner you will find.  My dogs earn everything they get.  I just insist nicely.
    And, yes, I managed the environment when they were young.  Not too different than putting safety locks on the cabinet doors when you have a crawling infant in the house.  Do you think that swatting the kid is a better solution?  And, who swats the kid if mom works all day?
    I don't get it.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I really don't know their line of thinking on this.  I just saw it on a post today.

      But, I consider managing a dog's environment as part of the rules, boundaries and limitations.

    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    ORIGINAL: JM

    I think managing the environment may be considered permissiveness to some.


    How would you prevent the dog from eating the couch while you are at work?  Webcam & e-collar??? 
    Anyway, why is it whenever positive methods are mentioned that the word permissive creeps in?  I am probably the least permissive owner you will find.  My dogs earn everything they get.  I just insist nicely.
    And, yes, I managed the environment when they were young.  Not too different than putting safety locks on the cabinet doors when you have a crawling infant in the house.  Do you think that swatting the kid is a better solution?  And, who swats the kid if mom works all day?
    I don't get it.


    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: espencer

    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    How do you feel about establishing boundaries by redirection...?? (ie "that's no good to chew on, here-chew this instead.)


    I feel that will teach the dog to keep chewing what he does not suppose to so he can have the "trade for" item, "if i chew the couch they will give me the other stuff i like more", what happens when you are not there to trade? the key is just letting the dog know what is right and what is wrong, he does not have to have something specific to do in exchange, people say "well if i dont want him to do something then he is gonna ask me what he should be doing instead" but he does not have to do something else instead, just stop, if the dog chews your couch you just teach him that the couch is yours, not his, and he cant be doing nothing with another member things


     
    Good explaination.
     
    It is important to supervise our dogs and set them up for success. Part of being a good leader is seeing that you do this and think ahead of a given situation so that you are not simply "reacting" to a dog's behaviors once they have escalated, which puts you in the follower position. IMO 
     
    Leaders act and communicate clearly - followers react to the leader's instructions and directions.
     
    Distracting a dog, avoids the setting of a boundary.
     
    The dog is redirected from the activity and direction they were headed, but nothing in the redirection communicates where a boundary lies.
     
    If my dog is heading in a direction I don't want her to go say, she is loose in my yard and a dog walks by...she looks in the dog's direction and starts to take a step...I say "eh-eh", and she stops. I can communicate a verbal boundary anyplace, anytime with just a word. She stops, and clearly understands. We encountered a loose cat today on my parent's porch. A bit tempting to her, but no problem.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Angelique

    ORIGINAL: espencer

    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    How do you feel about establishing boundaries by redirection...?? (ie "that's no good to chew on, here-chew this instead.)


    I feel that will teach the dog to keep chewing what he does not suppose to so he can have the "trade for" item, "if i chew the couch they will give me the other stuff i like more", what happens when you are not there to trade? the key is just letting the dog know what is right and what is wrong, he does not have to have something specific to do in exchange, people say "well if i dont want him to do something then he is gonna ask me what he should be doing instead" but he does not have to do something else instead, just stop, if the dog chews your couch you just teach him that the couch is yours, not his, and he cant be doing nothing with another member things



    Good explaination.

    It is important to supervise our dogs and set them up for success. Part of being a good leader is seeing that you do this and think ahead of a given situation so that you are not simply "reacting" to a dog's behaviors once they have escalated, which puts you in the follower position. IMO 

    Leaders act and communicate clearly - followers react to the leader's instructions and directions.

    Distracting a dog, avoids the setting of a boundary.

    The dog is redirected from the activity and direction they were headed, but nothing in the redirection communicates where a boundary lies.

    If my dog is heading in a direction I don't want her to go say, she is loose in my yard and a dog walks by...she looks in the dog's direction and starts to take a step...I say "eh-eh", and she stops. I can communicate a verbal boundary anyplace, anytime with just a word. She stops, and clearly understands. We encountered a loose cat today on my parent's porch. A bit tempting to her, but no problem.




    So how is what you're saying any different than what I said?