Aggressive Dog

Angelique, thanks that was very helpful.  As a added bonus I am seeing that most people who are labeled as followers of CM recognized their own home grown thinking and ways in him.  That could explain the defensiveness and passion.  To critize CM is to personally attack an individual's creativity and intelligence.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Angelique, thanks that was very helpful.  As a added bonus I am seeing that most people who are labeled as followers of CM recognized their own home grown thinking and ways in him.  That could explain the defensiveness and passion.  To critize CM is to personally attack an individual's creativity and intelligence.

Speaking for myself, I simply don't like hearing any trainer being slammed (which is what some members here do, not just critize him). I may not agree with their methods, but what's slamming them going to prove? And I can't slam them because I don't own the all knowing book of dogs. Who does?

We...meaning the collective.  I don't have any "case studies" but if ever encountering one, my first question would be...WWCD?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Oh I got to hear this! And soon I'll share mine. But in the mean time, I'll just drool waiting to hear this answer.

ORIGINAL: JM

We...meaning the collective. 

 
Yep, I knew it...the borg.

ORIGINAL: JM

We...meaning the collective.  I don't have any "case studies" but if ever encountering one, my first question would be...WWCD?

Cr*p! I've got to get out of here, but before I go. Ok so I tend to think by some of your post, that your a trouble maker, and perhaps you think the same of me (which we know of course isn't true lol). Heck, maybe your just being a wise guy here, but that was funny.

Ok! I'm out!

Exactly.  It was supposed to be funny.

 Believe it or not, we (being the collective aka the borg) are not out to get CM nor his fans   

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: JM

We...meaning the collective.  I don't have any "case studies" but if ever encountering one, my first question would be...WWCD?

Cr*p! I've got to get out of here, but before I go. Ok so I tend to think by some of your post, that your a trouble maker, and perhaps you think the same of me (which we know of course isn't true lol). Heck, maybe your just being a wise guy here, but that was funny.

Ok! I'm out!

ORIGINAL: JM

Believe it or not, we (being the collective aka the borg) are not out to get CM nor his fans 

 
Or shut down the flow of information and disrupt discussions.
 
As your behavior in this entire forum clearly demonstrates.
 
Define "we".
 
And give me one personal example of a dog you have worked with which is as close as possible to the OP's question.
 
Are you a trainer? Belong to any interesting organizations?
 
Define "we", and please stay on topic.
 
 

As far as the flow of information goes...I was all for discussing the probabilities/possibilities of  humans using human pschology on dogs, vs. "maybe we are not using human psychology on dogs, but dog psychology on humans."

Which you brough up the intitial point.  I was just offering a counter point.

And...it was you who became stuck on the definition of  "we" and stopped the discussion.

It made me think of Clinton and his remark about the meaning of "Is"

ORIGINAL: JM

Believe it or not, we (being the collective aka the borg) are not out to get CM nor his fans.

 
You did not say "I", you said "we". Who is "we"?
 
"We" implies a "collective" opinion, rather than an independant one, as you yourself stated.
 
Are you a trainer? Are you a member of any training organizations, clubs, or list serves? I just want to know where the "we" comes from, or if you are only sharing your own personal opinions based on your own experiences. 
 
You are not required to answer, and I will not ask again. The level of off-topic word games, manipulation, snide remarks, baiting and lack of personal experiences and examples in your posts, says a lot.
 
Crystal clear.
 
Back to topic:
 
Please, give just one example from personal experience of how you worked with a dog like this, what you did, how long it took, and how is the dog doing now...just one example.
 
Bye!
 
 
 

What makes you think I am a trainer?

I have never stated that I am a trainer.

Has "trainers only" become the new rule? No discussing theory allowed?

Personally, I think this constant urge for verification of me being a non trainer/trainer is off topic and disruptive.

As is the constant barrage for the meaning of we.

NRM

ORIGINAL: JM


It made me think of Clinton and his remark about the meaning of "Is"

If you ask me, that was shear GENIUS! on Bills part. LOL

ORIGINAL: DPU

Angelique, thanks that was very helpful.  As a added bonus I am seeing that most people who are labeled as followers of CM recognized their own home grown thinking and ways in him.  That could explain the defensiveness and passion.  To critize CM is to personally attack an individual's creativity and intelligence.

 
I have never heard someone who is attempting to discuss Cesar's methods or philosophies refer to themselves as "Cesar Only". Yet when you attempt to discuss him you are labeled a "fan" or a "groupie".
 
Most folks who understand what he is doing also understand that you also use operant conditioning methods in the "training" portion of working with a dog.
 
But if someone looks at what he is doing from a strictly "training" perspective, sometimes all they see is a correction, an assumption is made, and the "social" and "behavioral" elements of what he is trying to teach gets lost. Notice how often he gets compared to Leerburg and Koehler?
 
I have explained the differences in another thread, so I need not repeat myself here.
 
I don't see an attack or the misunderstandings of what Cesar is trying to teach, as a personal thing. The constant shutdown in the flow of discusions which could lead to some understanding of what he is actually doing and trying to teach, sure does get old though.
 
I've bumped into a few people who work with dogs as a profession who have said that when they first saw his show, he was describing something that they had been doing for years when interacting and working with dogs...that was different from training, but they couldn't quite put it into words until he came along.
 
He provides a common ground and a terminology by which we can discuss this "something", which I appreciate.
 
 
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

So I'll ask this of anyone who cares to answer, then I'll tell you some of (not all) how I handled it. You have someone who has a human and dog aggressive 140 lb French Mastiff. You arrive at their home, how would you approach and work with such a dog?

With care! []

It'll sound like a copout, but I don't think I could say. My experience with aggressive dogs is limited to dealing with charging dogs in the street. In those situations, I haven't had much of a chance to think, and have just reacted. My responses were as follows: yank my dog out of the way of charging dog and thank my lucky stars the owner was handy; yank my dog out of the way and thank my lucky stars the charging dog crashed into a tree behind us, giving us the opportunity to get out of its territory; whirl and snarl at a dog charging me from behind, sneak attack suggested fear, didn't see dog for the dust; leapt backwards from near silent launch and hastily backed out of territory.

I think I've been lucky. I've never had to think it through, only reacted out of instinct. The worst bite I've copped was from my rabbit. [] It REALLY hurt. []

So, if it were me, and it probably wouldn't be because I have little interest in tackling someone else's mess, I'd watch and take it from there. I'd work out how much pressure I could safely put on the dog and do my utmost to avoid a direct confrontation or challenge. I'd get the treats out and start tossing them over when the dog looked like it wasn't going to bite my head off. After that, I don't know, because it would depend heavily on why he was the way he was. Maybe he's overly sensitive to anything odd, which is likely because he's a guard breed, isn't he? But then, maybe he's just afraid, or maybe he needs to learn that he's not so tough and can't get what he wants by being intimidating, and maybe he's truly dominant and needs some religious NILIF. Whatever he was, I'd make it my mission never to push him so far he snapped and attacked. I guess my mission would be to keep pushing that moment of snapping back by habituation, and building trust between owner and dog. I would need to learn what his triggers were.

I think it's entirely possible to deal with him without causing a direct confrontation. All animals respond to the same stimulus of pressure. All animals attack or run when the pressure is too much for them to handle. Unless they're rabid. [] The trick is reading their body language so you can back off before you push them too far. Patricia McConnell wrote a great section on this in her book "The Other End of the Leash". I remember I so knew exactly what she was talking about because I'd had to learn it with my hare. There's no way in hell, I've decided, that you can keep a wild hare inside safely unless you learn real fast to be aware of the signs that immediately proceed an explosion of blind flight. Sometimes I still get surprised if he's particularly touchy today and I haven't been watching close enough, but I've got it down to around one explosion a month or less. Last month it happened in the middle of the night when I was asleep, so that one wasn't my fault. []

So I'll ask this of anyone who cares to answer, then I'll tell you some of (not all) how I handled it. You have someone who has a human and dog aggressive 140 lb French Mastiff. You arrive at their home, how would you approach and work with such a dog?

Since I'm not a trainer, I would call ahead of time and tell them to lock there damn dog up!![8|]