Dog Community

CM and Fear

DPU

Posted : 1/14/2007 9:23:55 PM

I watched the CM shiny floor episode very attentively, courtesy of espencer. The episode was very similar to a home situation I had with my Great Dane, Petro (pictured below) and the resolve was slightly different. I got Petro in Oct 2005 and was told he was 10 months old and his weight at that time was 120lbs.

For new dogs I keep them secured in 90sqft kennels in the basement when I am not at home. Petro has no problem going down the basement stairs. Petro has no problem going up and down the stairs to the 2nd floor. Petro had a problem going up the basement stairs. The basement stairs differed in that the stairs had no backing. Most foster dogs that come to my house have an initial hesitation with these stairs but usually luring helps overcome this.

Not Petro. Petro was petrified. I leashed Petro and tried to lead him up the stairs. Just like CM's first attempt to enter the building, Petro forcibly backed up. I then walked Petro around the basement to get him calm and in control mode. Just as CM I used momentum to get him on the stairs. Right before going on the stairs I would circle Petro. Where I differ from CM was I did not use force. Being on stairs, force would have been too risky for injury to the dog and myself. I repeated this until Petro was high enough on the stairs where his head was even with top stair and he could see the flat floor. I then switched to luring. This was not a 1-2-3 step and all was fixed. It took time and there was a lot of repeats and setbacks. It wasn't 10 minutes, I would say between a half and a full hour and I had to get the dog out of the basement. Each subsequent day became a lot less effort.

What did CM accomplish in the shiny floor episode? Did he extinguish the fear? Did he diminish the fear? Did he create a greater fear or a bigger worry for the dog? Did he correctly identify the source of the fear and address only part of the problem?

I got the lesson that the episode was trying to convey to the audience. I thought that CM addressed only part of the problem but did not address the cause that lead to the fear. The mom says Kane was loose, running, going toward the exit glass door, looses footing and then crashes into the glass. Mom then coddles the dog. CM says mom nurtured the trauma behavior. Kane associates shiny floor with trauma. Yes, the dog had to get over that but also needed to learn that running on the shiny is going to cause trauma. At the end the dog was pulling on the shiny floor so the trauma has the potential of happening again.

One of my other Great Danes, Drizzle developed a fear of the teeter totter at the training center. She was ok with it at first but when the equipment got steep she tried it once and then would not go near the equipment. I worked with her at home going from a flat setting to steep. She was ok with it. In class when the equipment was set on steep, Drizzle tried it once and then had nothing to do with it. The reason, the board made a loud sound when it hit the cement floor while at home the equipment is outside and the ground muffled the sound. Not only did I have to re-acclimate her to the equipment I now had to address her being traumatized by loud crashing sounds. All to avoid future traumas.

Now fast forward to present (and the reason for my post) where Petro is having another stair problem. It happens when he is coming down the 2nd floor stairs and stops and cries at the 3rd steep step. When this first happened I went to him, looked to see what was going on, patted Petro on the should and said come. Petro followed. I thought it might be his nails were too long so I dremmeled them. All was ok for a few days until it happened again. This time I did not go to Petro but turned on the light thinking maybe he is having a vision problem. Light on, I say come, Petro comes down. This past Friday I come home from work and normally I am greeted by all dogs. Not Petro, he is stuck at the 3rd steep step and crying. I go to him, pat him, and try to coax. He was very distressed and wanted to get by that 3rd step but had a really hard time doing it this time. I don't want to flood because I do not know the cause of the fear and given my experience I know it is not just the 3rd stair.

nfowler

Posted : 1/14/2007 11:00:10 PM

Nice post. Here's my question about all of that: do we know, on the CM show (I missed some of it) if that dog had any injuries or hip dysplasia or anything else like that? How many times had he slipped and fallen when nobody had been around to witness/see it?

And I ask the same about your Dane, too, even though I know it sounds negative. Since nearly 30% of all dogs (according to Vet Surg journals, etc) have some form of HD (dysplasia), how do we know what causes fear of certain places or activities?

My dog is an HD dog and he knows he can't go where there are no rugs. Don't ask me how since I haven't had him his whole life, but he knows.

nfowler

Posted : 1/14/2007 11:06:47 PM

Like the example of Kane, btw. Let me add one more comment and then I'll hush up and see what others say. I have rugs and carpet everywhere and when I take them off to clean my laminate floors, my dog sits at the edge (on the carpet) and watches me sadly. He can't and won't come near me--he knows what it feels like to fall.

All it takes is one HUGE catastrophe and it changes things for a dog. Why she wouln't just use rugs is well . . . I guess a topic for another section.

corvus

Posted : 1/15/2007 4:39:14 AM

It is a good post, and nfowler brought up the same point that was running through my mind.

Penny has a degenerate disk high up in her spinal column, just in front of her shoulder blades. Since that happened, she's been a bit leery of stairs. She hesitates often and sometimes she stops halfway and seems unsure whether she wants to keep going or turn around and go back. Before she goes down stairs, you can almost see her taking a deep breath and psyching herself up for it. She grew up in a house with stairs and never gave them a second thought until now.

She also hesitates when it comes to jumping down from something, and going down steep hills. I've come to learn what worries her and I usually pick her up if we have to do something that might hurt her. She usually welcomes my help. So, I'd first ask if Petro has any other things that seem to worry him.

Otherwise, I think the way you're dealing with fear in your dogs is ideal. Your point about giving the dog too much confidence is a very good one, and one I hadn't really thought of. I often think dogs need to be told not to be silly about things, but I also think a little fear gives them a healthy respect for things that might hurt them. I never feel particularly bad when a big truck frightens my dog. Very privately I think, good, because that's just one more reason for her to be wary of the road if she ever gets out alone.

ron2

Posted : 1/15/2007 5:47:40 AM

I never feel particularly bad when a big truck frightens my dog. Very privately I think, good, because that's just one more reason for her to be wary of the road if she ever gets out alone.

That is an excellent point. Some "fearful" behaviors can be a good thing, as a means of avoiding something that could be more wrong than the behavior. Fear does have its uses, even in humans.

I think the point of CM is that the dog trusts you, the human, and that you can command obedience, sometimes for the benefit of the dog. Say the house was on fire and the only way out was the shiny floor. We're going over the shiny floor whether doggy likes it or not. And I can see where a dysplasic dog could suffer more injury on a slippery floor and would be fearful of it and that might be a good thing, in order to stay away from something that could harm it. CM also advocates getting the dog checked by a vet to assure that the behavior is not caused by a physical problem or illness before seeking a behavior modification program.

So, in the end, it's a shiny floor or a loud truck and CMs aim is for the dog to look to and trust the human, even in spite of its fears, IMHO.

espencer

Posted : 1/15/2007 10:38:34 AM

ORIGINAL: DPU

I got the lesson that the episode was trying to convey to the audience. I thought that CM addressed only part of the problem but did not address the cause that lead to the fear. The mom says Kane was loose, running, going toward the exit glass door, looses footing and then crashes into the glass. Mom then coddles the dog. CM says mom nurtured the trauma behavior. Kane associates shiny floor with trauma. Yes, the dog had to get over that but also needed to learn that running on the shiny is going to cause trauma. At the end the dog was pulling on the shiny floor so the trauma has the potential of happening again.

I dont see the dog pulling on the shiny floor, even if he does there is a big difference between pulling and running

What the dog learned was to "respect" shiny floors, just like when you are ironing a t-shirt, if you get burned by the iron you wont touch the iron again ever, you are just going to be more careful next time, Kane knows now not to run on shiny floors, if you notice the first thing he does when he gets in every time is start walking next to the wall, thats exactly what you do when you go to an ice skating ring, you rather to go slowly and next to the wall to help yourself, of course Kane has no hands to hold from something if he falls but the floor is not as slippery as ice, he is "respecting" the floor just like you "respect" the ice after you ended on your butt the first time [

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Angelique

Posted : 1/15/2007 11:42:00 AM

I think the lady who owned Kane was carrying a piece of carpet with her everywhere and it was shown in the beginning of the episode how this wasn't working for her.

I believe too, fear is an emotion which keeps us safe. However "unreasonable" fear can keep a dog from overcoming a bad experience when it's reinforced by the owner's own behavior and demeanor, however inadvertantly.

DPU,

Twice you went to the dog who had stopped halfway down the stairs when it whined, and gave comfort. It's possible that this was counterproductive in getting the dog to move forward. Dog's sometimes see "comforting" behaviors in humans as insecurity or lack of confident leadership in the situation. This can reinforce that there is something to fear.

The dog has already shown it will come down the stairs. There is a possibility that this dog my be feeling some pain which you are not aware of. This could be just some discomfort, or something more serious. Just something to keep in mind. [

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spiritdogs

Posted : 1/15/2007 2:15:02 PM

I'm just throwing this out there for people, since I don't want to get involved in another CM thread.
One of the reasons why dogs get frightened of slick floors is that people don't keep their dogs' nails trimmed, even as puppies, and the dogs can't get a grip on the floor with their pads if their nails are too long. Just a word to the wise about one preventable reason for this behavior.

Angelique

Posted : 1/15/2007 3:04:06 PM

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'm just throwing this out there for people, since I don't want to get involved in another CM thread.
One of the reasons why dogs get frightened of slick floors is that people don't keep their dogs' nails trimmed, even as puppies, and the dogs can't get a grip on the floor with their pads if their nails are too long. Just a word to the wise about one preventable reason for this behavior.

Good point.

Some dogs also have very furry feet, and gain better traction if the fur is trimmed enough to expose their pads.

DPU

Posted : 1/15/2007 3:58:50 PM

Espencer, you are correct there is a big difference between pulling and running. But if the Dane is running there is a potential of slipping and sliding just as there is if the Dane is pulling and being restrained. Danes are close to 3 feet off the ground and the impact of 160lbs to the floor is a certain injury of some kind to the Dane.

"What the dog learned was to "respect” shiny floors”. Come on, that was not a calm and confident Great Dane walking on the shiny floor. His head was down, body crouched, hugging the wall. That's fear and distress. I don't what the cause of the fear is because either it is the shiny floor or the forced treatment. The forced treatment may have trumped shiny floor. But that doesn't matter because Kane has not been taught how to behave on shiny floors so the trauma is mostly likely going to happen again. The cycle will start all over.

espencer

Posted : 1/15/2007 4:16:09 PM

ORIGINAL: DPU

"What the dog learned was to "respect” shiny floors”. Come on, that was not a calm and confident Great Dane walking on the shiny floor. His head was down, body crouched, hugging the wall. That's fear and distress. I don't what the cause of the fear is because either it is the shiny floor or the forced treatment. The forced treatment may have trumped shiny floor. But that doesn't matter because Kane has not been taught how to behave on shiny floors so the trauma is mostly likely going to happen again. The cycle will start all over.

Oh i never say that after the 5 minutes that CM had with him then Kane is calm and confident about shiny floors, the rehab would last a couple months so he can feel 100% comfortable

When i said he "respects" shiny floors i mean he learned that running around is not a good idea but just walking is fine, Kane learned what is the best way to behave around shiney floors, thats why i talked about the ice skating ring, if you jump in right away the first time ever like if you were a pro then you are going to fall, what do you do right after? you dont start skating just like you did before, you take your time and skate slower and next to the wall right? you learned your lesson

By the way, CM has another episode about a dog afraid of wooden floors, same problem as Kane, they toke the chance to show a following on Kane's behavior to show that it was the same situation, one year after he helped Kane he was walking normally on the same shiny floor, the behavior of running around never came back [

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DPU

Posted : 1/15/2007 4:47:33 PM

Angelique, I do not buy that there are “unreasonable” fears. Fears have an origin and that origin has to be identified in order to extinguish. I tried to point out in my OP that it is not always the obvious.

This morning I do as I always do, open the backdoor and yell OUTSIDE. This gets the sleepy heads all excited and come running. Petro is stuck on the 3rd steep step and crying. This time my approach was to tease, saying things like ‘outside#%92, ‘everyone#%92s outside having fun#%92. Petro got excited and anxious to get over that 3rd step and with me by his side, just in case. The worst happened and Petro lost his footing and collapsed. I grabbed him but he was so heavy and in a downward motion that I could not hold on. Petro did a belly slide down the stairs, snagging his dew claw and breaking the nail at the base. Vet visit and thorough checkup. Passed with flying colors except for weight gain. I had switched dog food a month ago and quality of the food put extra pounds on Petro. Petro posture and gait is awkward and with the additional weight and nails made it hard to do the stairs. The vet also wants to take the nails down to stubs to help give him have surer footing. Now the task will be getting Petro to know its safe to go behind the 3rd step. My thinking is Petro will feel his sure footing and I will have to do nothing special.

I agree with your statement that fears can be reinforced by the owner's own behavior and demeanor. What makes sense to me is if it is repeated and thus reinforced. In the shiny floor episode, CM stated that at the moment of the trauma, the mom reinforced the trauma by coddling Kane. I don#%92t know the degree of coddling but it is very natural to attempt to calm and touch the dog, feeling for injuries. How can that be true?

espencer

Posted : 1/15/2007 5:24:54 PM

ORIGINAL: DPU

CM stated that at the moment of the trauma, the mom reinforced the trauma by coddling Kane. I don't know the degree of coddling but it is very natural to attempt to calm and touch the dog, feeling for injuries. How can that be true?

Yes is very natural to attempt to calm and touch for humans , in the dog's world is different, if you do it you are telling him "is fine to be scared, keep doing it", attemptimg to calm is applying human psychology on a dog, which is wrong, you need to use dog psychology and that tells you that you should not nurture the behavior by feeling bad, sorry or trying to calm down, using human psychology is fufilling your own needs (the need of calming down the dog and feeling sorry for him) and not fufilling the dog's needs (a calm and assertive leader that would take cer of the situation and step up)

DPU

Posted : 1/15/2007 5:27:14 PM

ORIGINAL: espencer

... they toke the chance to show a following on Kane's behavior to show that it was the same situation, one year after he helped Kane he was walking normally on the same shiny floor, the behavior of running around never came back []

I need to see the video. Mom stated it was a mircle and did not qualify the miracle with months of rehab and training the dog on how to behave indoors.

jones

Posted : 1/15/2007 5:36:23 PM

I just watched the Shiny Floor segment. I actually wonder how much the Dane's fear was linked to the "traumatic" incident and how much was actually just the regular fear of reflective surfaces that a lot of dogs have. Of course I can never be sure, but you can't always trust the owner's analysis... people can make false correlations, looking for answers, and it seems people have a strong tendency to look for the dramatic - "trauma" or "abuse" - as the cause of a behavior. The Dane did appear to have trouble getting a foothold on the linoleum, but more than that the mention of him avoiding wet roads gave me pause.... I remember reading something in McConnell's For the Love of a Dog about how even human babies will crawl around a plexiglass insert in the floor, it is so hardwired in us ground-dwellers to avoid falling through the air. It's common among dogs that an individual whose natural temperament is a little fearful or unsteady will be more likely to be fearful of things - or to develop permanent phobias of things that startle him during a fear period - that more even-tempered dogs might be startled by but get over quickly.

Watching the segment, I feel that what CM did was neither about teaching the dog Human is Master nor Floors are to be Respected, but simply teaching by experience that the fear was unfounded. I am not crazy about slip collars or forcing a dog by utilizing the sensitivity of the neck... but I must confess that in general I don't see a lot wrong with what he did there. I don't even necessarily see it as flooding, but more like systematic desenstization... I might prefer that he have gone a little more gradually but in principle the idea is fine... similar to taking a car-phobic dog for trips up and down the driveway. Many times a phobic dog is going to be too aroused and fearful to take counterconditioning treats and you have to work with the situation only: show the dog it's okay.