CM and Fear

ORIGINAL: DPU

I need to see the video.  Mom stated it was a mircle and did not qualify the miracle with months of rehab and training the dog on how to behave indoors.

 
The couple months of rehab came after that episode ended and that the dog realized not to run indoors, "miracle" is a word used by someone that could not believe what she was watching, of course the dog was not 100% "cured" yet and ready to go on a skate board and skate indoors

did not qualify the miracle with months of rehab and training the dog on how to behave indoors.

 
So, the actual amount of time for rehab or retraining determines whether it is a "miracle" or successful, or not?[X(]

ORIGINAL: ron2

So, the actual amount of time for rehab or retraining determines whether it is a "miracle" or successful, or not?[X(]

 
Mom said it was miracle and implied all was fixed.  Big hurrahs at the end.  Espencer is adding more rehab information after the fact. 
 
If all I had was that video and not used my common sense, I would have collared and leashed Petro and forced the dog over the 3rd step.  I don't think his "sure footing" problem would have been fixed. 

ORIGINAL: DPU

Mom said it was miracle and implied all was fixed.  Big hurrahs at the end.  Espencer is adding more rehab information after the fact. 

If all I had was that video and not used my common sense, I would have collared and leashed Petro and forced the dog over the 3rd step.  I don't think his "sure footing" problem would have been fixed. 

Well rehab is keep working in the same problem with the same technique, i'm sure CM gives them homeworkd to do. Just like you said, if your were not using common sense but you do

If you can see in the video CM only forced Kane to get in, once he was inside he gave him time to get used to, he grabbed a chair and waited, youcan do the same with Petro, just make him get into the stairs, once there wait for him to get used to the idea that nothing is happening at all, dont nurture the behavior by calming him down or feel sorry for him, just sit down and wait 

David, I liked your description of the method you used originally to get Petro on the stairs. It put me strongly in mind of getting horses that hate floats loaded up. They walk them around in circles in front of the float, gradually widening the circle so that the horse has to step higher and higher up on the ramp to complete the circle. I've seen it done many times on television, and always thought it was a good way to do it. Seeing as horses are so large and skittish, it's dangerous for everyone to try to force them. I'm beginning to think I should train all my animals as if they were as large as a horse. []

This caught my attention. Of course there are "unreasonable" fears, puppies and dogs will show a fear of something they've never incountered before, once they know what it is, they don't really care.

Now as far as talking to a scared dog, well it's one of the worst things one can do. The dog doesn't understand the words, and it only makes matters worse. Notice you never see a mother dog coddle her pups this way. If infact your dogs issues are not medical ones, patience may be your key to success. Take your dog and place him one step beyond where he normally has an issue and sit and wait at the bottom of the stairs. Slowly move away making little noise that make dogs want to come to us. If he comes down praise him up and go about your day. On day two do the same, except this time after you praise him up take him right back up and do it one more time. One day three, do it a second and third time. His confedence should grow *naturally* this way. While coddling may be natural to humans, it's quite alien to dogs. Just watch any show about the lives of wild dogs and you'll see what I mean.

Corvus, glad to make a contribution.  I can only offer my experiences and observations from the many dogs that come and stay in my home (a plug for fostering rescues).  Each one is unique and brings with its own quirky type of behavior that I have to deal with and resolve.   With CM in particular, as I read these discussion and view the videos provided by espencer, I observe my dealing with dog issues are somewhat similar.  For most of the videos I have had first hand experience.  He is also very helpful in clearly defining the meanings of behavior.  Since coming to the forum, I have learned a lot about dog behavior but honestly I have not changed my approach, gentle but with a strong commanding attitude.  And just like others I would say I use a combination of training methods that work but I had to find out or develop on my own. 
 
I don#%92t have a negative opinion of CM but I will pick and choose the parts of his teaching that suite me, the same with any other expert/author.    I am particularly proud of myself when experience allows me to enhance or point out a particular risk not observed by others.  I would have like this thread to use the shiny floor video as base to explore and talk about the not so subtle issues.  I got the message of trust, leadership, and attitude that CM is trying to convey.   He could have used cartoon characters and I would have gotten the same message.  But he used people and dogs in a situation and one#%92s observation is different from another#%92s observation, hence the need to discuss.
 
Since this particular video hit so close to home where I have a similar dog and with the same surefooting fear, I wanted to make sure my remedy covered all bases.  I wanted to explore the root cause of the fear and not the obvious.  In my Drizzle teeter totter example, the root cause was not the steepness of the equipment but the sound it made.  Jones#%92s post touched on this. 
 
I wanted to examine the responsibility of the mom before she called in the big guns.  Again, Jones#%92s post touched on this.  The mom stated she thought it would be cruel to force the dog on the shiny floor.  How did she reconcile this with what CM did?    If forcing was not an option for her, then why didn#%92t she do something else.  What could she have done?  I suspect she liked this situation because it was unique and gave her a conversation piece.   Common sense tells you to at least try something.  And while I am on the subject of the mom and was against forcing, the dog was forced prior to CM.  It was apparent when she and CM attempted to place Kane on the shiny floor.  The amount of resistance applied by Kane was far greater than the forced pulled.  The dog learned how much force it needed to apply in order to avoid the shiny floor.
 
I wanted to explore the risk factors in CM#%92s remedy.  Big dog, physically moved, can equal human back injury or muscle pull.  Big dog, not surefooted, panic mode, can mean collapse and injury.  In my live situation and despite precautions, Petro tumbled down the stairs and ripped her dewclaw (lots of blood).  No one commented on this or even expressed concern.  When the belly slide occurred and I go to Petro to calm and touch for injuries, this could be interpreted by the dog as reinforcing the fear behavior or it could be interpreted as calm leadership taking charge and care of the dog.  I did not get the distinction at all from espencer#%92s post.
 
I think it does the forum good to have these types of discussion.  Before creating this thread I read corvus#%92s thread on CM#%92s flooding and thought everyone was walking on eggshells.  That did not help the common Joe like myself who has to deal with real live situations.

Hi Awsomedog and welcome to the forum.
 
My hesitation in dealing with Petro#%92s fear was because I did not know the root of the fear and why the dog was not moving forward.  As you say patience was the key to my success.  Patience to learn what was the cause of the fear and properly identifying it.  If I don#%92t know the source of the fear and the fear is founded by displeasure to the dog, then I risk losing the trust and my bond.  The fear could have been a nail or staple coming out of the floor and what do you think the dog would think of me if I forced/coerced/enticed the dog to step on a nail/staple.  As other posters stated, it could be medical such as the first signs of HP.  Do you know if dogs get vertigo from an ear infections and it causes the dog to loose balance?    As common Joe, nail length and ear infection were my first considerations for resolve.  There always has to be a root source for fear.
 
As it turned out the fear is rooted by unsure footing and tumbling down the stairs.  The vet and I surmised it is weight gain and nails length.  With the bandage wrapping on the leg which could mean more support for the unsure foot fear and me gently tapping (once) Petro#%92s hind leg, the dog moves beyond the 3rd step.  So far this has worked 4 times with no incident.  You recommendation is good because it is gentle and enticing the dog to come to me because of my relationship.  Unfortunately going up and down the stairs is a normal movement of the dog to go bed, go outside, go eat, etc. so the luxury of time is not available.  Thanks.

ORIGINAL: DPU There always has to be a root source for fear.

Thanks, glad to be here. And I will have to dissagree with you here, some fear has no real basis, it can in fact just be due to the unknown, or lack of confidence.

As it turned out the fear is rooted by unsure footing and tumbling down the stairs.

This is what I suspected.

The vet and I surmised it is weight gain and nails length.  With the bandage wrapping on the leg which could mean more support for the unsure foot fear and me gently tapping (once) Petro's hind leg, the dog moves beyond the 3rd step.  So far this has worked 4 times with no incident.  You recommendation is good because it is gentle and enticing the dog to come to me because of my relationship.  Unfortunately going up and down the stairs is a normal movement of the dog to go bed, go outside, go eat, etc. so the luxury of time is not available.  Thanks.

Glad to here your vet seems to know his/her stuff. And hey, lol if a foot tap works, that's great. But let me add, sometimes when teaching our dogs, it's best to take a little time to work on any problems we (or they) may be having. That way things move smoothly during real life.

And speaking of, I've a little training to go and work on myself now.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: DPU There always has to be a root source for fear.

Thanks, glad to be here. And I will have to dissagree with you here, some fear has no real basis, it can in fact just be due to the unknown, or lack of confidence.

Well, that is a legitimate basis for fear. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that not all fears have a basis in trauma or have a history?

Can you get booties for big dogs, with rubber grips on them? It might help Petro feel more confident and speed the rehabbing along.

This is a good discussion. What do you believe would happen if you addressed the problem without first knowing what the root source of the fear was?

I have these problems with my hare sometimes. As a skittish, wild animal living inside, sometimes things terrify him unexpectedly and sometimes it's a lasting fear. For months I had to gradually regain his confidence about people kneeling near his cage after a stranger reached in and patted him one day. With him, I treat most of his fears seriously because he can really hurt himself if I ignore it and his fear escalates to blind panic. When he freaks out, I quietly say "Kit, sh sh sh". Sometimes it works and calms him and sometimes I've just got to leave and make sure everyone stays away from him until he calms down on his own. The nice thing about hares is that they calm down VERY fast when they think the threat is over. I figure, otherwise they'd be lucky to live a year with all that stress in their lives. [] However, sometimes he develops habits based on fear. When I was overseas, my mother would clean his cage out. At first he didn't trust her hands in his cage, so she let him out so he could go hide somewhere until she was done. It turned into routine and when I got home he insisted he needed to be out of his cage when I was cleaning it, even though I'd never before let him do that. When I don't let him out, he sometimes gets anxious and scared. It's a fear based on the interruption of routine in that case. He remembers being afraid when he was inside his cage when it was cleaned and thinks that if he gets caught in his cage while it's being cleaned again, he will be scared. I think it's an interesting demonstration of how odd fears can come about.

I think it depends very much on the scared animal how you go about dealing with the fear. Some animals are too liable to panic to flood. If Kane had been a panicky dog, I wouldn't have risked flooding him. There's no way in a million years I'd ever flood my hare. His fear can escalate to amazing heights and it's all together possible for him to have a heart attack if pushed too far. So we always take it very slowly. Penny, on the other hand, is not at all prone to panicking. I deal with her fears by ignoring them, but on the odd occasion that she panics, I will coddle and soothe her because it works. Panic is a horrible feeling for animals to experience as well as being dangerous, and I think if going to them and soothing them works, you should do it.

Corvus,
 
Isn't your hare from a wild rather than a domesticated lineage?
 
Something else to keep in mind when comparing different species is whether or not they are a "prey" species vs a "predatory" species. A prey species is more apt to be more naturally wary, and will choose flight over fight in most situations.
 
I use a lot of what I learned with skittish, fresh-off-the-track horses when I work with fearful dogs. Although the "language" and psychology is different, and horses being prey animals are more apt to choose flight over fight, than a dog would.

ORIGINAL: corvus

...What do you believe would happen if you addressed the problem without first knowing what the root source of the fear was? ...

The obvious problem is Petro stops at the 3rd step, wants to move forward but won't, resulting in a worried, apprehensive, disturbed, and whining behavior.  I assess the situation and don't see any reason for stopping.  My choices are flooding, nudging, or luring.  Lets say the source of the behavior is a protruding nail coming out of the board.  The last time Petro came down the stairs he stepped on it and experienced pain.  If any of the choices for addressing the obvious problem were successful, Petro would experience pain with each occurrence.  Dogs will always avoid displeasure and very quickly, Petro will avoid me, ruining my trusting relationship.    

Your 2 examples of fear in your hares made me think of my African Grey Parrot, Echo.  Get a parrot they will not only show you extreme animal behavior and how to read that behavior, but they will also tell you.

There were 2 distinct causes for the bird to behave anxiously (for parrots that is an understatement).  The 1st is fear based, where there is imminent or perceived danger.  In your 1st example the Hare perceived danger when approached by a stranger and that stranger tried to grab.  The 2nd distinct cause for anxious behavior in a parrot is perturbation.  This is where if you move a vase from end of the table to another, the bird gets very anxious because there is a change in the stable environment.  For perturbation you tell the bird to suck it up (flooding) and eventually the bird get use to the new arrangement.  Just like your Hare in your 2nd example, the stable routine changed and the Hare got use to it. 

Dogs will construct their behavior to avoid displeasure.  I don't know if dogs gets perturbed and I never thought of it because I have never seen it.  But both are displeasure so the dog would construct behavior to avoid. 

Petro is progressing fine.  Just so you know my vet's office is the one who trims the nails.  It is the best $14 spent because the techs always come out bruised.  The last one had a black eye.  When this first occurred and I thought it might be the nail lengths, I dremmeled him and he was ok with it.

Today when I came home, Petro was at the top of the stairs.  I went to Petro, touched his hind leg and escorted him down the stairs.  I will continue to do this until I detect a change in behavior from changing from displeasure to pleasure.  At some point the fear will dissipate and he will like me escorting him down the stairs.  The change in behavior will be subtle and then I will stop the escorting.  I will ignore him and his reason to come down by himself will be the powerful incentive to go outside.

By the way, the Great Dane breed is call the heart-breaker dog because of its short life and a too small heart for such a big body.  Another risk consideration.

I still do not understand the distinction between coddling, reinforcing the fear at the moment of trauma and typical care and examination at the moment of trauma.

ORIGINAL: corvus
Well, that is a legitimate basis for fear.

Actually, no, it's not. I don't consider the unknown as a "legitimate" reason for fear. Which is a subject that can be debated itself. It is only, my professional opinion.

I have these problems with my hare sometimes.

Are we comparing one species to another? Isn't that like comparing dogs to humans? Something many humans mistakenling and regrettably do.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Today when I came home, Petro was at the top of the stairs.  I went to Petro, touched his hind leg and escorted him down the stairs.  I will continue to do this until I detect a change in behavior from changing from displeasure to pleasure.  At some point the fear will dissipate and he will like me escorting him down the stairs.  The change in behavior will be subtle and then I will stop the escorting.  I will ignore him and his reason to come down by himself will be the powerful incentive to go outside.

So! you proceeded in a manner his own mother would have done. Approach, take the lead, and let the pup "observe" (which is how they learn) your confidence and actions to "show" it's ok, not step up to the edge of a murky lake and say, "hey! why don't you guys check it out, and make sure the coast is clear.

I still do not understand the distinction between coddling, reinforcing the fear at the moment of trauma and typical care and examination at the moment of trauma.

Your wife, husband, sister, mother brother, dad or mom may coddle you, not the emt, or doctor, they help you. Examining and coddling have two very different meanings.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Corvus,

Isn't your hare from a wild rather than a domesticated lineage?

Something else to keep in mind when comparing different species is whether or not they are a "prey" species vs a "predatory" species. A prey species is more apt to be more naturally wary, and will choose flight over fight in most situations.

I use a lot of what I learned with skittish, fresh-off-the-track horses when I work with fearful dogs. Although the "language" and psychology is different, and horses being prey animals are more apt to choose flight over fight, than a dog would.

Yes, he's wild born. I think he's taught me more about animals and the way they learn and think than any of the domestic animals I've ever come into contact with. It's funny, a lot of the lessons you learn from watching animals transcend species. With wild animals, they're so much more sensitive and independent to humans that you when you mess up, it's a whole lot worse than when you mess up with dogs. My dog is very easy, but if I confuse her somehow, the worst she'll do is give me a patient look and wait for me to sort myself out. When I confuse the hare, he might ignore me, he might get cranky, or he might go into a total mindless panic and refuse to have anything to do with me for two days. You learn pretty fast how to behave in a non-confusing fashion! But I've noticed that since he came into my life, I was forced to pay a lot more attention to how I move around and interact with him. It spilled over into the way I work with my dog as well, and I that made life easier for Penny as well. Once I started paying close attention, I found that the animals, both wild and domestic, were trying to learn how to communicate with me better as well.

No matter what the animal, I think understanding any behaviour better helps us to understand better the behaviour we see in our dogs. It all goes towards building a complex understanding of how animals think and react and reason, even when there's no correlation in behaviour across species, that teaches us what is species-specific and what is universal.

DPU, good point about the source of fear. I think when people talk about coddling a frightened dog, they're thinking of making a fuss of the dog, making a lot of high-pitched, baby talk, giving the dog extra attention and soothing cuddles. I think it does send a message to the dog that fear can be rewarding. I think of the hypochondriacs that say they think they have a brain tumour when they have a headache. If you say "Really? That's terrible! You should go to the doctor and get that checked out. You know, if you have a brain tumour, you might also have been experiencing this this and this" and the person suddenly thinks, oh yes, I've experienced all those things. I really do have a tumour! Poor me! This is serious! I've seen the same thing in small children too young to talk. They fall down and sit there for a moment, looking bewildered. Then out of nowhere, Mother comes swooping down, picks kid up, goos over them, says "Oh no! Did you hit your little head?? Dear me, there there." And suddenly the kid bursts into tears. The kid was already a little worried because falling down did give him a bit of a jolt, but he would have got over it in a few moments if an adult hadn't come along and made him think it was all a big deal with their behaviour.

I see nothing wrong with quietly and calmly checking a dog over to make sure it's not hurt, or saying some words in a soothing tone. I think the key is not to turn it into a big deal. When my dog is in a lot of pain, she puts her head on my shoulder and leans against me for a cuddle. As if I wouldn't give her a cuddle! She's hurting and she wants comfort, but more than that, she's trying to tell me that something's very wrong with her. Does she come looking for cuddles in the same way when she's not hurting? Nope. So I don't see a problem with offering comforting cuddles when she's hurt. It seems to make her feel better and doesn't damage our relationship in the slightest. In fact, if anything, it probably bolsters the relationship.

Similarly, my ex housemate has an old BC cross. He's a big sook and when he's scared, he comes looking for a cuddle. Give him a comforting snug and he's happy to go lie down and be frightened on his own rather than pacing around the house whining and panting. So yes, he got a cuddle whenever he was frightened. In that case, it seems that he figured it's not a big deal if we're prepared to spare a moment to reassure him. But if I were to gush over either of them when they were frightened or hurt, I think they'd get even more worked up and anxious because I'm acting strangely as well, so whatever happening is obviously not right.

That's how I see it, anyway.