Is aggression allowed in your pack?

espencer, I disagree with you a lot of the time, but I enjoy your sense of humour. [] That alone is enough to make your presence welcome. []

Angelique, why would a dog express itself through the tendencies artificially bred into it when its most natural way to express itself is closed to it? As far as I know, traits don't know the selection pressures behind their existence. []

I don't follow your reasoning. Think you could run through it for me?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I think sheprano may have dropped from the member list, too.  [sm=sad.gif][sm=peace.gif]

Yeah the pics on the sig are gone, i dont know if thats a bad sign, Anne, would you PM me too if i do the same? []

Oh, I doubt that you have any intention of leaving us without being forcibly ejected.  So, it probably won't be necessary for me to do that.  But, if you want to try me, go ahead...[sm=wink.gif] [sm=devil.gif]

ORIGINAL: corvus

espencer, I disagree with you a lot of the time, but I enjoy your sense of humour. [] That alone is enough to make your presence welcome. []

Muchas Gracias []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Oh, I doubt that you have any intention of leaving us without being forcibly ejected.  So, it probably won't be necessary for me to do that.  But, if you want to try me, go ahead...

Mmmmm i have a feeling really deep inside of me that tells me that i should let pass the opportunity that you are offering right now, we can always pretend next time i sign off []

Yes, you are a funny guy.......a click and a treat for you[]

ORIGINAL: snownose

Yes, you are a funny guy.......a click and a treat for you[]

 
Ahhh, but what is the driver?  Could it be love?

ORIGINAL: snownose

Yes, you are a funny guy.......a click and a treat for you[]

No!!!!!! Don't do that!  After all, espencer isn't a dolphin, you can't take your treats into the show ring, you may not always have your clicker with you, what are you going to do if he does something bad and you have to correct him, and oh-by-the-way you are bribing him...
[sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]


On the other hand, he might actually learn to repeat the funny behavior. [sm=wink2.gif]  Yup, that's right.  Click - treat.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: snownose

Yes, you are a funny guy.......a click and a treat for you[]

No!!!!!! Don't do that!  After all, espencer isn't a dolphin, you can't take your treats into the show ring, you may not always have your clicker with you, what are you going to do if he does something bad and you have to correct him, and oh-by-the-way you are bribing him...
[sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]


On the other hand, he might actually learn to repeat the funny behavior. [sm=wink2.gif]  Yup, that's right.  Click - treat.

All well and good within a controlled environment.

Instilling giggles within others is not only self-rewarding, but far more useful in the real world (than a bucket of herring) where behaviors are not so easily controlled and the social dynamic of the shared giggle creates a mutual rewarding bond.

Not very funny or rewarding when your stuck in the unnatural environment of a water filled tank and readily perform tricks for fish in order to eleviate boredom and keep from going insane.

Shared laughter is best, and stimulates the pleasure center of the brain in a similar way as an orgasm. IMO ...Ha-ha-ha...Oooo, nice. [8D]

Otherwise you will sit alone, blind and with hairy palms, giggling to yourself in isolation with the fish of the previous days perfomance, still on your breath.

Espencer,

Your humor is always welcomed, and balances out those who may take things a bit too seriously.

[sm=joker.gif]

blind and with hairy palms

 
Oh, gosh ...[]
 
 

ORIGINAL: corvus

Angelique, why would a dog express itself through the tendencies artificially bred into it when its most natural way to express itself is closed to it? As far as I know, traits don't know the selection pressures behind their existence. []

I don't follow your reasoning. Think you could run through it for me?

I break it down further than Cesar does. Cesar's order when observing the family pet dog is:

Animal
Dog
Breed
Personality

I go a little further:

Animal
Vertibrate
Mammal
Social Mammal
Carnivore (w/omnivorous abilities)
Canis group
Wolf (common ancestry)
Species dog
Breed
Breed lines
Natural pack status by birthright (dominant or submissive)
Personality

A dog is a member of the "canis" group before it is a dog. A dog's breed specifics are important, but a dog is a canis group member and a dog before it was bred by man for certain "skills'.

All pit bulls are first a canid, second a dog, third their breed, forth their breed line, etc. Certain traits and behaviors will apply to the dog, but specific skills apply to specific breeds.

These skills which were bred for by man, should not be ignored and are a definate "heads-up" should you choose to live with a certain breed. These skills will also surface if the dog becomes frustrated with excess energy and/or is not provided with confident fair leadership.

However, a dog is a dog, first - before it is a breed. To say all dogs of a specific breed will always behave a certain way, regardless of how their human raises, trains, communicates, and fulfills their needs, is a gross generalization which I've personally seen proven wrong.

We sould also take into account the different lines within a certain breed. A GSD with extremely sloping hindquarters and of a line bred for a passive temperment (which may win points in a show ring in America and may make a good family pet) is not of the same lineage as their German bred, working counterpart bred for protection and doing military patrol.

There are "specifics" of pupose even within a given breed, depending on the goals it's human masters (breeders) are intent on acheiving within that given line.

Take any line of any breed, read the breed specifics on the net and you will see some interesting information.

It's also interesting how so many breeders of the specific lines in any specific breed describes their own dogs as "special" and different from every other dog on the planet.

Yet, they are all first and formost, dogs.

Hmmm, interesting, Angelique. I agree with you for the most part, but am still a little confused.

Do you reason that a dog is a dog first, so they express themselves first as dog, then as breed, then as line and so on? If the dog part is older, couldn't you reason that they would revert to that in times of stress rather than turning to expressing themselves in the ways they were bred to? Perhaps if you prevented them from expressing themselves as dog, they revert to expressing themselves as social carnivore, and so on backwards through evolution?

What an interesting topic and discussion. Fact backed up is one thing but how it's delivered is another. No matter how much we "Know" or can direct someone, the way we do it some times leaves us preaching to no one because the tone has shut the choir down.
 
Now on topic...
Having owned a dog bred, raised and taught to fight I will agree with Shep that this is not something the dog does because it loves to. The dog does it because he loves his master more then life itself and will give 110% to do what pleases the master. I'm talking about an APBT and an APBT ONLY. There are many other dog aggressive breeds out there and the extent of their dog aggression I am not educated on so please do not think I am transferring this to all breeds of dogs, this is speaking from experience with a dog who was good at what she did beacuse that was all she knew until she came to live with me. She had to be "re-programed" to live with other dogs and because she was an APBT she taught me as much as I taught her.
 
Dog aggression is not permitted in my dogs. There is a difference between true aggression and rough housing/playing. I will not tolerate dog aggression because of the activities I am involved in publicly and choose this. My dogs have a lot of time to play and use themselves to not have pent up energy and know that the "behavior" in not acceptable.
 The funniest thing in our home is that one bloodline of my French Bulldogs are more dog aggressive then the Am Staffs...I don't accept that either and have bred that out in the last breeding I did and will continue to work at better temperaments off that line. It's interesting that some dogs(breeds) can be called down or re-trained because they do what they do to please and others can't because it is truely in them like my frenchies. Also I know this is a bloodline/temperament issue in this french bulldog line as I have close contacts with owners who have aunts and cousins as well as daughters bred from the same male we've found to have produced this temperament and although my girl (Honey) has gotten better as she's aged the aunts/cousins have gotten worse as has Dunkin and Blinky.
 
 

That's all very interesting, Jaime, but brings to mind the issue of what happens outside the pack.  Do you think that, because you have insisted on no aggression within the pack (and I'm not totally convinced that you could enforce that in dogs that are extremely intent on it), that your dogs would always behave non-aggressively outside the pack as well?
I think it's a myth to think that we can overcome every instinct in the dog to the point where we can ever guarantee that they will all behave as middle of the pack dogs either inside or outside the pack.  Most of us have simply chosen dogs from that strata.  But, if you've ever seen some of the dogs that end up tossed into shelters for aggression, before they make their way to the dead bin, it would curl your hair.  Some are always going to take it to the limit, whatever their breed, because that's who they are, individually.  And, it isn't always because someone wasn't careful in their breeding program, as you obviously are.  It's an accident of nature - simple genetics.  Dogs are predators in the end, albeit neotenized ones, so many still carry the genetic material necessary to do that job, and survive in a (pardon the expression) dog eat dog world.  I do think some breeds are more predisposed toward dog to dog aggression than others - Akitas for example.   Yet, I have one Akita that has been coming to play group for three years, since he was 8 weeks old, and, while his "parents" keep a close eye on him, he has never done anything that could be considered seriously inappropriate in interacting with other dogs.  He's a real gentleman (scares the crap out of the first-timers when he walks in, though []) and an all around good dog.  Aggression occurs on quite a continuum, from a slight grr, or curled lip, to an all out attack.  My dogs are allowed to utilize the milder forms, so that they can tell another dog when they've had enough, or so that they can warn a puppy "you've run out of puppy license", or so that they don't have to take endless harrassment from one another "I don't want to play right now, you silly speckled Aussie".  When it looks like it might go over the top of what I think is reasonable (and in my house that means you don't get obnoxious, and you don't sink your teeth), I step in, and they all have some puppy push ups to do LOL.  But, to deny most dogs the use of a warning is likely to result in worse.  You just have to know your own group of dogs. But, I think that a blanket statement of "absolutely no aggression" is unrealistic.  It would be as if you lived in a house with an obnoxious little brother that you had to tolerate all the time, and couldn't even say "hey, cut that out".

Do you think that, because you have insisted on no aggression within the pack (and I'm not totally convinced that you could enforce that in dogs that are extremely intent on it), that your dogs would always behave non-aggressively outside the pack as well?

Actually in the case of the rescued APBT who was bred, raised and trainer to kill and was VERY good at it. She was so severely animal aggressive she attacked a pocelin duck on my well when she scooted out past my FIL one day. She is the dog that taught me about the breed and how they are as loyal as what they are and that they do what they do to please, not as much as being bred into them. What is bred into them is to give 110% to what their owner expects..that breed alone Frenchies could care less what you want, they are here for themselves only []
 
 
This bitch was able to after working with her for a good amount of time be housed with other intact bitches and never had an issue. She also would get out in the neighborhood after the change in behavior and aggression issues on occaision due to FIL alzheimers progressing and he would let her out of her crate and out the door. Luckily we did live in the country and she was safe after her newly readjusted way of thinking...so yes, she was reliable out of the pack.
 I also forgot to mention Dana's dog aggressive girl, she came to us as an older dog, set in her ways and would only be acceptable of one male in the household consistantly. She tolerated one girl but put her in her place in a little stronger way then I will accept. She has mellowed as she's aged and we've worked with her which makes life much easier.
The frenchies on the other hand are NOT reliable in the pack and will push every button and take advantage of every opportunity they can. They do not respect Dana and Dustin's authority above them either and will attempt to push my buttons often.
 Of course temperament can and is bred in and out of a breed of dog, recognizing it and living with it can be difficult. My personal feelings are to not allow it in breeds known to be aggressive as when you don't correct it, you condone it and you're setting yourself up in the long run for certain breeds. many breeds are bred and raised to live in packs much better then others, hunting dogs esp.

I think that a blanket statement of "absolutely no aggression" is unrealistic. It would be as if you lived in a house with an obnoxious little brother that you had to tolerate all the time, and couldn't even say "hey, cut that out".

Rough housing and corrections are totally different then aggression. I allow for those types of behavior. True animal aggression is not tolerated. I work too much in the public for my dogs for them to show any type of aggression in the pack or away and that goes for dogs whoa re not mine that travel with me.
This past show season Dustin handled and finished a championship on a dog who lives in NJ. The dog came to us showing Markie that he was going to be boss. I am boss and Markie knows this. This dog needed to learn where he feel in the line up. He was below Markie to my choosing, he was desenstitzed through crate aggression and was introduced over and over until he understood that a lip curl or vocal communication was not acceptable behavior. he lives with an intact male and spayed female. He is not top dog at his house and thought he was going to be top dog with us..WRONG! He learned very quickly that good behavior was rewarded with treats and bad behavior meant that he was to walk away and watch someone else get treats. Within 3 days of him traveling with us he could then be head to head getting treats right next to Markie They will lip lick, chew flews and play bow one another because they know that is as far as it can go. Recently this dog came back out to show with us in Nov after being away from our teachings and what is acceptable and he was aggressive toward Markie on a front on. It took all of about 3 minutes for him to know who he was with and what was expected of him.
 On another note, Markie knows what he is also not permitted to do in the form of aggression, this summer he was bitten and attacked by a much smaller dog, I reached in and got nailed and all Markie did to protect himself was to use his paws and attempt to push this dog away from him. He NEVER once attempted to put his mouth on this dog although he was biting him and me.
So I do expect my Am Staffs to uphold what they have learned is unacceptable behavior in the form of aggression in and out of the pack.
Maybe I'm just blessed!

Great examples of aggression not to be tolarated in any form Jaime!! Thats what i always say, you are correcting behavior not only noise, the claims of  "if i correct growling my dog will go for the bite directly" are not true, you do it, you own pitbulls and according to you everything is fine []

Aggression will come only if the dog thinks there is something wrong in the enviroment or his/her needs are not being fulfilled, if you let your dog know that you are the one that controls the enviroment then he does not have to be aggressive, if you fulfill his/her needs then the aggression does not have to come out

Imagine if your let your dog growl "because if you don let him he will go for the bite directly" then you would be out of the show in a second, specially for being a pitbull

I dont think your dog is a "time bomb" either for not to be able to growl (in an aggressive mode), he knows that the thing you dont want is the behavior behind the growl too