Is aggression allowed in your pack?

    • Gold Top Dog
    I allow it during playtime, rough housing sounds terrible at my house.[:D]
    There are growls galore, but in the end it's all harmless.
    I end it, I call the shots.

    I never allow it indoors, that is where we all need to behave[;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I dont allow aggression for this simple reason, i dont know if this time will be one of those times where is going to escalate, maybe 90% nothing bad will happen but how do i know that every single time will be inside that 90% or actually will "cross over" to the 10% where it will be dangerous, i wont know, and because i dont like to play "rulette" with situations like that i rather to interviene every single time
     
    I also pay attention to the situation, i see if is just about a moody dog or if is the other dog that instigates the fight, maybe the other dog is "too much in his face" and thats why the first dog growls, i take the second dog away for not respecting the personal space and at the same time i let the other dog know that i will handle the situation myself, my dog will trust that i'm there to step in and set discipline, boundries and limitations like the leader they expect me to be, my dog will trust me that i will tell the other dog to be respectful of personal spaces
     
    The problem also about letting the dogs growling at eachother is that the time between that and an actual fight it can be less than a second, because i am not that fast i dont want to find myself in the middle of a fight in the blink of an eye, thats why i rather to handle the situation before escalates
     
    I believe that not because you supress a growling the dog will go straight for the bit next time, and the reason is that in the dog's world they dont supress noises, they supress behavior (the human world is different and people apply that human logic to dogs), if i supress a growl the dog knows i actually dont agree with the behavior, the dog knows that what i'm trying to correct is that and not the noise he is making, is the same when they bark at night, when i correct the barking at 2 am they know what i am correcting is the behavior which is the one causing the barking
     
    I dont believe that we should let the dogs "work it out" because that could bring problems, time pass by an a  young member could feel is time to challenge an old member for higher ranking in the pack and things could get nasty, there is people that have letting their dogs "work it out" and they end with years of fighting because niether of them wanted to step back. I believe that human should be number 1 and the rest number 2, and yes, that small hierarchy is still a hierarchy and you are not taking it away from their nature, you save that way a lot of headaches
    • Gold Top Dog
    Breed factors in as far as I am concerned. My Beagles are allowed to sort things out because I know there is no innate need or desire to finish the arguement not in the other dogs submitting...but in the other dogs ceasing to live. If you have experience with innately dog aggressive breeds you understand that are HIGHLY sensitive to rank, they take insults as seriously as can be....and their discipline is for keeps and intends to injure or maim.
     
    Akitas do not have a stop button in most cases with other dogs...and they are more than built to end things. They also will PURPOSELY hide their intent both from their owners and the other dogs...sometimes whiskers bristling on the face is the ONLY thing to tell you the wagging tail and happy stance is not for real. Pits as well can wag their tails and look extremely happy to see other dogs but then act completely unexpectedly when they get close to them.
     
    If I recall Cesar's pack is composed of many breeds bred to fight...it IS different with them...because they often enjoy fighting and some are probably reformed fighters that....like alcoholics were broken of their addiction to the feeling fighting gives them. You cannot ask an recovering addict to sit near someone doing that and not partake...and you should protect them from themselves as much as possible. IMO that means protecting them from the triggers that will lead them to backslide.
     
    So I do allow aggression with the breed I have now because it can be stopped with a word from me...if I still had Akitas I most certainly would NOT.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

    Breed factors in as far as I am concerned. My Beagles are allowed to sort things out because I know there is no innate need or desire to finish the arguement not in the other dogs submitting...but in the other dogs ceasing to live. If you have experience with innately dog aggressive breeds you understand that are HIGHLY sensitive to rank, they take insults as seriously as can be....and their discipline is for keeps and intends to injure or maim.
     
    Akitas do not have a stop button in most cases with other dogs...and they are more than built to end things. They also will PURPOSELY hide their intent both from their owners and the other dogs...sometimes whiskers bristling on the face is the ONLY thing to tell you the wagging tail and happy stance is not for real. Pits as well can wag their tails and look extremely happy to see other dogs but then act completely unexpectedly when they get close to them.
     
    If I recall Cesar's pack is composed of many breeds bred to fight...it IS different with them...because they often enjoy fighting and some are probably reformed fighters that....like alcoholics were broken of their addiction to the feeling fighting gives them. You cannot ask an recovering addict to sit near someone doing that and not partake...and you should protect them from themselves as much as possible. IMO that means protecting them from the triggers that will lead them to backslide.
     
    So I do allow aggression with the breed I have now because it can be stopped with a word from me...if I still had Akitas I most certainly would NOT.


    Certainly Akitas are not the only dog that hides its intent.  Individuals from other breeds do this as well.  It's why we often have people say, "he bit with no warning".  There's always some warning - like the turned whisker.  We just don't catch it. 
    In any case, the question was whether we allowed aggression in our pack, which I do, since it is appropriate and mild.  However, Gina's point about certain other breeds is well taken.  BUT, and this is a huge BUT, you need to know your customers - if you plan to stop escalation and aggression, you had better know when, why and how to address it if you have an assertive breed or individual in your pack.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles


     
    Akitas do not have a stop button in most cases with other dogs...and they are more than built to end things. They also will PURPOSELY hide their intent both from their owners and the other dogs...sometimes whiskers bristling on the face is the ONLY thing to tell you the wagging tail and happy stance is not for real. Pits as well can wag their tails and look extremely happy to see other dogs but then act completely unexpectedly when they get close to them.
     
    While I agree with this completely as I do with almost ALL of your posts and with the utmost level of respect because I have learned a whole lot from you........

    If I recall Cesar's pack is composed of many breeds bred to fight...it IS different with them...because they often enjoy fighting and some are probably reformed fighters that....like alcoholics were broken of their addiction to the feeling fighting gives them.
     
    This part of your post is absolute rubbish. Just becuase it is in their nature it does not mean they ENJOY it. They do it out of instinct, how they reacct to fear or aggression, and out of loyalty to their owner
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: sheprano

    This part of your post is absolute rubbish. Just becuase it is in their nature it does not mean they ENJOY it. They do it out of instinct, how they reacct to fear or aggression, and out of loyalty to their owner
     

     
    I agree, aggression is an unstable state of mind that causes stress, i dont think is natural to be unstable and stressed, and for sure they dont enjoy being in that state of mind
    • Gold Top Dog
    Aggression is let out by the amygdala part of the brain that is defined by genetics. This is also the part of the brain that controls serotonin (happy juice) and studies show that when aggression or a large degree of fear is felt the levels of seratonin are extremely low....thus there is no joy experienced by fighting or being aggressive.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I cant get over how disturbed I am by this discovery of RW's beliefe of dog aggression. Its like this.....

    If a mother was abused as a child and grows up to do the same to her children because that is all she knows it does not for one second mean she likes beating or abusing her children. It means that is her instinct and reaction that is built into her brain, she dosnt get a rush that is similiar to a junkie bozzing it up. [>:]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Shep, as always you can feel however you want about my post, happy Friday to you.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

    Shep, as always you can feel however you want about my post, happy Friday to you.


    Ok well I am posting absolute facts, I'd be happy to send you a book by Patricia McConnle that clearly outlines and backs up everything I said. I'd also be happy to pm you plenty of web sites that state the similiar. And NO they arnt pit bull web sites, they are scientific websites.
     
    **Content removed**
    Rude and attacking behavior
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am sorry you're so sad today Shep...hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Gina, your point is indeed well taken. Breed tendency as well as tendencies of an individual should be taken into account. I think I need to talk to you at some point about akitas, seeing as I'm thinking seriously of getting one. A breeder I spoke to has a male who deals with challenges simply by lying on the upstart. The only time he's ever caused damage was when someone put their vicious heeler in his yard. He pinned the dog, but it kept trying to kill him, so he bit it and that sent the dog to the vet. It made me feel much better about potential dog fights with an akita, but I guess that akita may be unusual.

    Espencer, I see where you're coming from. We had a dog a while back that was a rescue. She had no bite inhibition, so when she attacked Penny, Penny often ended up at the vets. We did get very good at diving in and grabbing her collar before she could attack. It could all turn bad in a second. The problem was complex, but the long and short of it was we didn't tolerate aggression between those two dogs, but even so, the only way to stop it was to be there to physically grab the dogs. In the end, it became apparent that Penny would never be safe around this other dog because a second isn't a lot of time to get across the room and intervene. Our rescue girl was not like that because she disrespected human authority. She just didn't hear us when she was about to attack.

    Now, we have a pack of mentally healthy, balanced dogs. They don't hurt each other when they fight because they all have excellent bite inhibition. I always watch an altercation because you get fair warning before it turns nasty so you can intervene before someone gets hurt.

    Maybe aggression doesn't make a dog happy, but that doesn't necessarily make aggression something to be avoided at all costs. The growling is behaviour as much as it is a noise. My feeling is that it's a behaviour that should be seen as different from fighting or challenging behaviour, because it's a lower level of aggression being communicated, and is more a warning than a promise of physical aggression in the immediate future. My argument is that it's an important way to communicate. I've seen countless growls that did nothing but tell the other dog to back off, and the dog did, which actually prevented a fight.Yes, growls can progress to a fight in a second, but if you prevent the growl, you don't necessarily prevent a fight. Our rescue dog never growled before she attacked. My feeling is that growling is infinitely preferable than launching an attack with practically no warning.

    As for changes in the hierarchy, the only time I've seen that become nasty was with two female dogs around the same size and weight. I've seen Penny go from top to bottom to top to bottom as the pack members changed, and when new members are well-socialised, the shift in the hierarchy is over in a few seconds without a drop of blood. On the other hand, if you undermine your alpha dog by refusing to acknowledge the new change in the hierarchy, you can end up with a drawn-out case of bullying.

    I also like my dog to be able to look after herself to some extent. Sometimes she's offlead and meets big dogs that aren't real friendly. Often, she can judge that dog better than I can, because I'm not a dog. I'd rather she communicated freely with that dog than looked to me to tell her what to do. I trust her judgement when it comes to strange dogs, and she's proved that trust to be well-placed on many occasions. She'll tell a big dog to back off with a lifted lip or by snapping at the dog's face. It used to frighten me because I thought she'd start a fight with a dog big enough to kill her by doing things like that, but she knows what she's doing. She doesn't do it to a dog she doesn't think it will work on. In those cases, she looks to me for protection. She's never caused a fight outside of her pack with her behaviour, so I've come to trust that she's a well socialised dog, aware of her strength and size, and well-versed in dog language. In short, she's a specialist in dog behaviour, and I believe she needs aggression sometimes to keep herself safe and happy. I'm happy to let her use it for as long as I trust her judgement.

    In summary, I accept that there are cases where you might want or need to suppress any form of aggression, but I believe that as long as your dogs and your pack are mentally sound and stable, aggressive signals can play an important role in keeping the peace, giving dogs confidence, and preparing them to deal with all sorts of situations with other dogs outside of the home.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Corvus you are not in the US right? We have an interesting standard when it comes to Akitas here. It reads "aggressive towards other dogs"...
     
    I believe all other countries use some variation on "dominant" to reference temperament...and their dogs usually embody that (what you describe is a dominant proper temperament IMO). There is a movement here to re-word the standard esp in seeing all the BSL (one can see the beauracrat (sp) sitting there thumbing thru AKC standards looking for "aggressive"...or at least I can see it lol!)...and just to stop giving breeders excuses to breed that type of temperament.
     
    If you ever want to chat Akita I'd be happy to...I love them dearly...they are not like any other dog on the planet! If you start a thread in Breeds I'll gladly chime in there whenever you get the notion!
    • Gold Top Dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    In those cases, she looks to me for protection. She's never caused a fight outside of her pack with her behaviour, so I've come to trust that she's a well socialised dog, aware of her strength and size, and well-versed in dog language. In short, she's a specialist in dog behaviour, and I believe she needs aggression sometimes to keep herself safe and happy. I'm happy to let her use it for as long as I trust her judgement

     
    I find many times it's not my own dogs judgement or socialization that is suspect...but the dog that runs up off lead lol! My Akitas used to really inspire some interesting reactions in other dogs...their owners would be so suprised "she's normally so friendly..." as their pooch is snarling and lunging at my dog..lol!