The language of dominance and submission

ron, when are you going to buy that darn clicker?????

When I get a job. If only I could be known as a dog trainer, then I could have a book and a show ... all I have to do is come up with some moves that are good with camera angles ...[]

Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

I had a thought!(Didn't hurt much either.) Regarding a dominant dog ignoring another dog that is misbehaving, I've often thought that people make a big deal out of their dog's transgresssions. When I groom a dog and it growls at me or tries to bite, I either ignore or just make an aah sound. (I do make sure I haven't done something painful!) That to me is just a normal dog reaction to express it's opinion about the whole indignity of being groomed! If I don't react the dogs will normally stop fighting me and I can get them groomed with little fuss, and we finish up as friends with kisses and wagging tails. Perhaps more people make their dog's aggression worse by meeting it head on with more aggression. I had a dog growl at me once that was sleeping on my bed. I crawled under the covers and calmly pushed him off the bed with my feet. The next night no growls, and never again! I have the opposable thumbs, I do the hunting at the grocery store, therefor I am woman and the boss,end of story!

lol...I do the hunting around here also. That was part of my earlier thought process.

My impression of alpha has always been : dominant male.

Maybe in a true wolf pack, we have a true alpha (female) and a dominant male. So, of course the dominant male will fight.  That is probably his job.

I have been looking at my own family in regards to this and found out some surprising things.

1.  I can and will, and do... over ride any decision made from anyone in the family,  if it goes against the greater good.

2.  No punishment to the underlings, be it human or animals, is allowed by anyone but me. (which pretty much means there is none beyond groundings, (time outs for animals).

3.  I control the checkbook and decide who gets what,  when and where.

4.  I buy the food and do most of the cooking.

5.  No human nor animal is allowed to follow me around while in the house.  Outside is acceptable.  This one surprised me because I didn't  think that I  commanded space.
I have seen some women go around the house with the whole kit n kaboodle behind her at every turn.  SO, kids, and all animals.

6.  One order from me and the SO will use physical force on another male. . This order only comes if I see someone in the family, be it human or animal, being mistreated in some fashion. 

BUT...if the SO found some male to be harrassing me or my daughter in a sexual fashion, of course no order from me would be needed.

See where I am going with this?

 Hell, we may be more "pack" than we realize.

ORIGINAL: JM

See where I am going with this?

Yep. Women rule the world. []

See where I am going with this?

 
That you are running a tight ship?[]
 
I think there is pack behavior in a human environment.
 
Husband and wife, when kids are born the parents are the alpha male and alpha female,and are in charge, no matter how many kids there are.
Well, that is how it is supposed to be, right?[]

Appearances are deceiving.  One would never know that I run a tight ship. I don't say much, never yell or make much of a fuss about things.  I'm nonconfrontational.  I don't argue. I never make a scene.

I don't have to do or be these things.

I do think that these are unspoken rules.

 I do consider me and the SO having a partnership.  It is like I have taken on these responsibilities... naturally.

When studying pack behavior in wolves, due to the male fighting, one probably assumes that it is the "alpha".  But, he very well could be taking orders from a higher power (the female).

Like I said in an earlier post, Dad has the final say in things as long as he runs it by mom first.  Most households are like this.

When I was growing up, to the outside, Dad appeared the ultimate authority figure.  But it was an illusion.  We all knew who ruled the roost.  Mom did.

Maybe that illusion is a built in survival mechanism.

So, here is my conclusion.  Yep, we are pack animals.  The female is the true alpha.  The male takes on the persona to deflect aggression from the true alpha.... and to ensure the survival of the pack.

Wow!  I have a whole new respect for males

ORIGINAL: snownose

See where I am going with this?

That you are running a tight ship?[]

I think there is pack behavior in a human environment.

Husband and wife, when kids are born the parents are the alpha male and alpha female,and are in charge, no matter how many kids there are.
Well, that is how it is supposed to be, right?[]

ORIGINAL: JM

Appearances are deceiving.  One would never know that I run a tight ship. I don't say much, never yell or make much of a fuss about things.  I'm nonconfrontational.  I don't argue. I never make a scene.

Sounds like leadership to me.

ORIGINAL: JM

I don't have to do or be these things.

I do think that these are unspoken rules.

I do consider me and the SO having a partnership.  It is like I have taken on these responsibilities... naturally.

You sound comfortable in your role as if born to it.

ORIGINAL: JM

When studying pack behavior in wolves, due to the male fighting, one probably assumes that it is the "alpha".  But, he very well could be taking orders from a higher power (the female).

Like I said in an earlier post, Dad has the final say in things as long as he runs it by mom first.  Most households are like this.

When I was growing up, to the outside, Dad appeared the ultimate authority figure.  But it was an illusion.  We all knew who ruled the roost.  Mom did.

Maybe that illusion is a built in survival mechanism.

So, here is my conclusion.  Yep, we are pack animals.  The female is the true alpha.  The male takes on the persona to deflect aggression from the true alpha.... and to ensure the survival of the pack.

Wow!  I have a whole new respect for males

At the seminar I attended, I could tell Cesar had read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus". He acknowledges a difference between male and female psychology and roles (as Gary also mentions in his book). Although, Cesar's comments about this are unfortunately taken out of context when he discusses the differences of how men and women interact with their dogs, and why.

At the seminar I heard Cesar say, "It's a wise man who is submissive to his wife".
 
His wife's name is "Illusion".

Just an aside - the gentleman that wrote "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" supposedly obtained his "PhD" from a diploma mill, not an accredited university, for those who are in to credentials...

And, to be honest, I find that remark about men being submissive to their wives a bit tongue-in-cheek-chauvinistic, although I'm sure it received the obligatory nervous chuckle.  It seems to me that partners should be dominant and submissive to one another contextually, not in a rigid pattern either way.  After all, just as dogs are no longer wolves, we are no longer apes.

My understanding is he used to think the exact opposite.  That wives should submit to their husbands.

But I hold no judgement against him for this.

Like I said... he is just trying to find his way in this world.   Just like everyone else.

Yeah, he admitted to having a somewhat bad relationship with his wife, due to what he called the "mentality of mexican men".
He changed over the years, at least that is what he says.[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Just an aside - the gentleman that wrote "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" supposedly obtained his "PhD" from a diploma mill, not an accredited university, for those who are in to credentials...

And, to be honest, I find that remark about men being submissive to their wives a bit tongue-in-cheek-chauvinistic, although I'm sure it received the obligatory nervous chuckle.  It seems to me that partners should be dominant and submissive to one another contextually, not in a rigid pattern either way.  After all, just as dogs are no longer wolves, we are no longer apes.

 
I went to his seminar, the book referral was to make paople understand that sometimes women tend to nurture while men try to dominate, thats why so many women in this forum come saying the dogs listen to the husband and not to them. Note: that does NOT mean it happens with everybody, in his household of course he said that he acts to the dogs like you see him on TV but the wife sometimes just gives attention, attention, attention wich for him is ironic since he repeats all the time how to act in front of a dog, his wife sometimes forgets about it and nurture the dogs anyways, thats why like i said he talks about that book, is in the womans nature to nurture instead of dominate or set rules
 
You have to be there to see what was the intention of the "submissive husband" remark, and yes, he was just joking (but not saying the husband need to be dominant over his wife) since his wife goes with him to every seminar, kind of an "inside joke"

ORIGINAL: snownose

Yeah, he admitted to having a somewhat bad relationship with his wife, due to what he called the "mentality of mexican men".

 
But of course not all mexicans act that way anyways [] 

This part I have to disagree with..."is in the womans nature to nurture instead of dominate or set rules".

I don't believe men want to dominate.  And usually, within a household, most don't set a lot of rules.

The women do.

I believe men may command a certain amount of respect among themselves.

Have you ever noticed what happens when a woman walks into a room full of beer drinking Nascar watching men?

All eyes are on her.  And suddenly, it becomes so much more important to relay every last detail of the last wreck to her, than it is to watch the race itself.

In man world, that means, "hey we're cool, right?  Not being too loud, making a big mess, etc."

To which woman replies.."hey, I'm up, anyone want a refill"?  In woman world this means "yeah, everything looks pretty cool.  Carry on."

[sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif]

Probably he means that the woman has this "mother nature" of nurture more than the men, regardless if you agree or not thats what he said and thats why he means by referring that book []
 
 

ORIGINAL: snownose

Yeah, he admitted to having a somewhat bad relationship with his wife, due to what he called the "mentality of mexican men".
He changed over the years, at least that is what he says.[]

Pity it didn't extend to dogs.  (Oh, slap me, I just couldn't resist... [sm=devil.gif])