The language of dominance and submission

If you think your dog knows "lie down" on only the voice, you can test it by simply putting your hands behind your back, not moving, and saying "lie down

 
Shadow will "down" on command, though he is watching my hand to see if it has a treat. Other times, if he's to excited about a loose dog, he's not always listening. Be that as it may, I can get him to down when we're playing with the ball, as the reward is to go after the ball.
 
But, to think of something funny, is when I'm trying to teach Shadow to speak on command and he doesn't understand. He'll run through the obedience tricks he knows, silently.

My dogs are more in tune with my hands, clicking my fingers & pointing.
 

My dogs are more in tune with my hands, clicking my fingers & pointing.

 
Makes sense.
 
Our mom had us clicker trained. When she snapped a finger, we froze in mid-air because the next step was a spanking if we didn't stop imediately.
 

This part I am not understanding..and I am quoting you below in italics.

Doesn't applying corrections automatically knock the corrector out of alpha status?

My understanding is alphas do not waste their time discplining.

And in dog world becomes..."hmmm... that position is now up for grabs".



 " When thinking social communication between a leader to a follower, it takes very little to get a disciplinary point across with even the lightest of correction. The correction is used by Cesar as the bite of a dominant dog to tell the dog "don't do that or stop that because (as your leader) "I" said so". If you are seen as the leader, the dog will comply quite willingly."

ORIGINAL: JM

This part I am not understanding..and I am quoting you below in italics.

Doesn't applying corrections automatically knock the corrector out of alpha status?

My understanding is alphas do not waste their time discplining.

 
How did you form this understanding?
 
 
 
 

Well, I don't know about JM, but I've read that [linkhttp://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm]here[/link], [linkhttp://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=2&A=1666&S=1]here[/link], and [linkhttp://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00380.htm]here [/link](under the heading "Starting Out").

I thought it was pretty common knowledge...or has this been discounted as of late?

There are some pretty good articles here about alpha status.

[linkhttp://www.4pawsu.com/articles.htm]http://www.4pawsu.com/articles.htm[/link]

edit to add this link
http://wcco.com/petcorner/local_story_131124949.html

Okay, I thought what you were saying sounded familiar. Yes, I've read those opinions before.
 
It's important to remember that just because someone writes something on paper, has a degree, connects their belief system with some scaps of actual science, is believed by a number of people, or is embraced as the one and only truth...this does not prove it to be true, and it is still only personal opinion.
 
JMHO
 
 

Well, then everything is just opinion and we can never know anything for sure, so why bother even discussing?

Here is another pretty good article.  I included it in an edit but too late I think.

[linkhttp://wcco.com/petcorner/local_story_131124949.html]http://wcco.com/petcorner/local_story_131124949.html[/link]

Now I have seen something like this in action before.

One day this pom got all radical on Zeus and hung by his ear for some reason or another.

What did Zeus do?  Nothing.  Waited for him to let go then plopped down for a nap.

Why?  Because Zeus doesn't feel the need to prove anything to the pom.  The pom is not worth his time.  Naps are much more important.

So, consider this.... when a dog is leash corrected (as in dog nip) and it doesn't respond in correcting you back.  What is that dog telling you?

He may  also be telling you that he is the ultimate leader, because peace in the pack pretty much guarantees survival of the pack.

I dunno...these are just some random thoughts that I am chewing on.  Doesn't make them gospel [sm=peace.gif]

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Well, then everything is just opinion and we can never know anything for sure, so why bother even discussing?

Because discussion is part of the process which helps a body of knowledge rogress. Everything which someone gathers into an opinion was taken from many parts. The next person takes that opinion and adds it to their own through independant thought, careful scrutiny, and common sense along with information from other sources. And so on, and so on...

Because you can take a lot of differing information and opinions from a lot of different sources, do personal research, see where something someone might say has merit in scientific proof, apply what you see and learn through your own experiences, see the results of a belief stystem in the form of success rates, evalute where the belief works or breaks down, etc...and then you can discuss it with others, get their opinions, and make up your own mind.

[]

It is a misconception that alphas do not correct because it's a "waste of time and energy." They do correct, quite often in during the cub/puppy stage. Scruffs, pins, head-butts. Later, when the younger wolves are strong enough to make a bid for alpha position, the alpha will correct, without hesitation as many times as necessary, especially when it comes to eating time during mating season. The young wolf then has a "choice" to either submit to the alpha or go out on his own. Dogs and wolves also pin and scruff each other in play. When they get to rough, momma dog will come along and either give a growl, or a scruff, or scruff and pin. When the dog submits (lies still) then she relents. That's not theory or opinion or semantics, that's actual documented evidence.
 
It would be more accurate to say that physical corrections do not happen every day, all day, but they do happen when necessary.

I had  heard this from someone here before and  did find it in an article.

In the wolf world, 2 are considered the alpha.  A male and female. Maybe we do learn something everday.

And yeah, I have read more than once that pups have a period when they can get by with about anything, then the manners phase begins.

And about the younger wolves either submitting or moving on.  That makes plenty of sense to me.  Especially along the lines of getting rid of trouble makers and keeping peace in the pack. I read somewhere that a dictator, or one who causes trouble a lot will be eliminated.  Or something along those lines.

Personally, I think we may be comparing apples to oranges...dog/human relationship to wolf/wolf relationship.

I dunno.  The verdict is still out in my decision.  But I am thinking that I may dump this whole alpha/pack thing in regards to me/ family/dog.

One thing has me hanging by but a thread and that is the peace thing.

Mothers spend about 75 percent of their time settling arguements between siblings, mediating between siblings and dad, keeping the dog and cat at a stand still.

Total peace keepers they are.

Dad pretty much has the last say in everything.  Providing mom approves the decision first.

I haven't a clue why I find this relevant.

ORIGINAL: JM

I had  heard this from someone here before and  did find it in an article.

In the wolf world, 2 are considered the alpha.  A male and female. Maybe we do learn something everday.

Wolves used to be a pet passion of mine. I've read and seen quite a few documentaries over the years. Talk about a swing of opinion there!

In wolves: Same-sex members, show the greatest amount of aggression towards each other. This is where dominance and leadership don't mean the same thing. This is a competition for the breeding spot. (I think Corvus brought this same-sex competition up in relation to some bird studies).

In dogs: Most pet owners, vets, trainers, and other canine professionals seem to agree that the greatest dominance-aggression happens between the same-sex members...and females are worse.

ORIGINAL: JM

I haven't a clue why I find this relevant.

Because it's an interesting piece of the puzzle? [&:]

I really think every tidbit counts if I'm interested in something, and maybe it will be relevant tomorrow when I find another piece. Kind of a treasure hunt.

So, do I file that in my brain under wolves? Dogs? Dominance? Interesting conversations? All of the above? []

ORIGINAL: ron2

If you think your dog knows "lie down" on only the voice, you can test it by simply putting your hands behind your back, not moving, and saying "lie down

Shadow will "down" on command, though he is watching my hand to see if it has a treat. Other times, if he's to excited about a loose dog, he's not always listening. Be that as it may, I can get him to down when we're playing with the ball, as the reward is to go after the ball.

But, to think of something funny, is when I'm trying to teach Shadow to speak on command and he doesn't understand. He'll run through the obedience tricks he knows, silently.

I love a dog that offers behavior to see if he can get you to reward him - these are dogs that *learn* and aren't afraid to try!!!  Barking on command is often a behavior you can elicit by barking at the dog, or simply by waiting for him to bark on his own.  Mark it, follow that with a reinforcer, and you've got "speak"!
ron, when are you going to buy that darn clicker????? []