question about Cesar Milan

Lori, I can agree that CM's idea of being "calm" is good.  The part I have a problem with is "assertive".  Reason?  Humans often are "authoritative" rather than assertive, and that's a huge difference.  Assertiveness is a leadership quality, but authoritativeness is often a quality of bullies.  If you are laying a dog on his side to make your point, he isn't translating that as a finely nuanced rebuff from a dog, he's translating it as an unexpected and scary move on the part of the human he barely understands half the time anyway.  It isn't communication, it's force, no matter how you cut it.  You can argue that force is ok, if you want to.  But, I think gunny makes a good point when he says there is another way.  And, I would add that you can't accurately assess one method against another without a whole lot of behavioral experience (most average owners can't even recognize when their dogs are stressed, or confused), or without having given a new method a serious try yourself.  I would suggest, for anyone who wants an obedient dog, and would like to get serious about trying clicker training (since CM has been quoted as recommending it - another point on which I agree with him), try reading Morgan Spector's "Clicker Training for Obedience".  He addresses most of the points that make traditional trainers fear trying it.  And, it is fear that keeps them away - I mean, after all, what if it really works?  No one would make you eat your words.  We are just interested in the welfare of dogs (which, again seems to be what you think CM is also for), so why not give it a try now that your idol has publicly said it's ok. []  Why are we arguing until you have all done that?  You mean it's ok to put a dog on its side because he does it, but it isn't ok to try clicker training (and I mean really try) even though he supports that, too??? You may get a pleasant surprise that you can then thank CM for. (And I promise not to tell you "I told you so".) []

And CM recently mentioning clicker training is not the first time he has suggested +R for actual training. I follow almost none of the actual physical methods he uses and definitely not in the order he prescribes. And I haven't seen the new season.
 
What I get from him is the importance of exercise and training. That the attitude counts more than the equipment. You could use clickers, prongs, treats but it depends on how you approach the situation. Something he has and a good trainer, such as yourself has (no, I'm not comparing you two) is timing and keen powers of observation. To spot a sign and divert before escalation. It is much easier, whether directing with a leash or leading with a treat, before escalation into war. And safer, too. When you spot your dog's legs and tail getting stiff and can step in and re-direct before they even get to the growl, then you control the situation.
 
I have used distraction to my disadvantage. While treat training, I will bring us near the corner where the barkamaniac BC is making all kinds of noise and trying to herd us through a chain link fence. And I will get Shadow to focus on me and ignore her, all for that little treat in my hand. That is, I have purposefully practiced in controlled yet distracting situations. And that's paid off, too.
 
And I would like to note that CM does recommend finding a trainer in your area, and most any trainer I have heard of around here is going to use +R and NILIF. And personally, I enjoy learning from any source, not just what's on t.v.

ORIGINAL: espencer

How would you train a silver back gorilla to not consider you his female? +R?

 
How would YOU do the same?  I'd love to see you perform a "leash pop" on a gorilla.  Roll him on his back? 
 
Gorillas are not the violent, immature beasts you are presenting espence.  Anyone that has read anything written by Jane Goodall would know that.  They are usually very sensitive and caring animals-almost humanesque in their range of emotions. 

Now as to inter-species love- I think there was only one recorded case-well only one that I've read about, and that was between an oddly shaped chimpanzee that was raised by humans and sought to emulate humans in every way.  He was a skirt chaser-from what I've read and seen on various animalplanet shows.  But they never once said he was violent or insistent about it. 
 
So I guess what I'm saying is:  What's your point?  This is a dog forum, not a gorilla training forum.  What applies to primates does not always apply to canines and vice-versa. 
 
To directly answer your question:  Yes, I'd use +R.  Try to use force with a gorilla, especially a big silverback.

Just to add some psychology terminology to help clear up some stuff:
 
There is a large body of research on parenting styles, categorized in one of three ways: permissive, authoritative, authoritarian. Permissiveness I think we all know what that is. Authoritarian parents are the ones who do a lot of punishing, very little positive reinforcement, very draconian, very my-way-or-the-highway, rules-oriented, with an emphasis on strict and blind obedience from the children. "Authoritative" parents are the ones in the middle. They set a rule, make sure the child understands it, and if the rule is broken there's a consequence (most often a logical consequence--you break a vase because you were in a room you weren't supposed to be in, so you have to do double chores for a week to "earn" enough allowance to buy another vase) followed by a conversation about why all that happened and how the child can better follow the rule in the future.
 
Not surprisingly, the permissive and authoritative parenting styles both produce less positive outcomes for children. Permissive-raised children feel ignored and have no self-control or boundaries, while authoritarian-rasied children feel punished arbitrarily and similiarly end up with  no self-control because they've always been controlled by their parents. They often feel that they might as well do bad stuff becuase they get punished anway for everything they do--at least make what you're getting punished for fun! Overwhelmingly the most positive outcomes for children come from the authoritative parenting style, which teaches children self-control by letting them make choices and then following through with the consequences, both positive and negative, of those choices. Good grades get rewarded just as much, and probably more, as bad grades get punished.
 
Anyway, just thought an injection of some universally-accepted termimonly might be appropriate here.

I made a big oops in my post - in a senior moment (couldn't be anything else - I have a degree in this stuff LOL), I used the word "authoritative" as the baddie.  You are, of course, correct that it is the authoritarian style that does the damage.  Thanks for the eloquently written post on the difference between the styles. []  Of course, any further reference to me having senior moments is not welcome.
[sm=rofl.gif]

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: the_gunny

So Ceasar's methods, if they do work are still not appropriate. because thier is a better way.

I think you forgot to add ".....for me" at the end of that sentence, if not then that is not an accurate statement or even a respectful one for some people that does not see the things the same way you do

just out of curiosity, has CM in your opinion ever been wrong? or is there somewhere wher eyou do not agree with him?

You can argue that force is ok, if you want to.

I'm not sure if the whole post was addressed to me.  But, no I wouldn't argue that force is OK.  I've never rolled Willow and took her immedicately away from a trainer who suggested it. 

I wouldn't be against clicker training a dog in the future but this dog caught on without one.  I may try one for her focus issues outside though.  It might be that the noise I can make with that would work just as well as any of the suggestions I was given. 

I did want to say this though.  And, this is going to be sort of had to word.  But, yes, my dog did get trained in a non-pushy, positive sort of way.  BUT, there are some issues that did not get addressed thoroughly enough, like her focus with this method.  I'm not saying that pulling her around or anything would actually help, but I do believe that SOME dogs, most especially these independent, "difficult" breeds, like a chow, sometimes need a little extra ummph to get their attention, to get them to stop doing something or whatever.   I don't know if everyone understands this like some of us but there are things that would absolutely THRILL almost any other dog, but wouldn't even get a glance from my dog.

I never "stepped up" my training in this way because I'm comfortable with her lifestyle now.  But, if I wanted her exposed to more people or dogs I might not have been satisified with the results of what I did. 

I hope that makes sense.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

You can argue that force is ok, if you want to.

I'm not sure if the whole post was addressed to me. 

No, that was the colloquial "you" intended for "if the shoe fits".[]

ORIGINAL: espencer

How would you train a silver back gorilla to not consider you his female? +R?

That's why silver back gorillas are not kept as pets. I sure wouldn't try smacking him or pushing him around, though. Those guys can easily snap you in half if they get irrate, and I pretty much guarantee you that a silverback will get irrate if you try anything BUT +R to teach him something. How do you suppose keepers taught gorillas to speak in sign language? They would have used a combination of classical and operant conditioning, i.e, +R.

I believe you could teach a gorilla to live alongside you and respect your rules if you started from the gorilla's babyhood. And you would use mostly +R and a little passive punishment when needed. It takes a delicate touch to teach wild animals manners, though. I still managed to teach my hare that I don't like it when he bites me and it won't get him anywhere anyway, but I didn't have to resort to 'corrections'. I just had to ignore the behaviour like I would any unpleasant behaviour I saw in any animal and any human.

If I remember my trivia, I think a gorilla is about as strong as 10 men. Trying to physically overpower a gorilla will get you killed, not just bit. I've seen a documentary or two where the whole troop will defend against an intruder. Smart, old intruders run away very fast.

espencer, I'd be willing to be that you couldn't train a chicken by manhandling it, either.  But, people have successfully trained chickens using a clicker.  So, if you want to start on something smaller than a silver back gorilla, there's your challenge. []

The vast majority of Cesar's work concerns body language. Very little physical force. I know that you can train animals almost exclusively through positive reinforcement, but insinuating that ANY physical force is unecessary really isn't truthful. If we needed no physical interation to train a dog, then why do we have collars and leashes?

And saying that horses are trained without physical force is also incorrect. I've worked with horses for years. They can easily overpower people, but most training is done physically. How? Through pressure. Pressure on a lead rope teaches them to move to relieve the pressure. Pressure from the riders leg means move forward and the pressure is removed. Pressure from a rein means to turn to relieve that pressure. Pressure from and right rein and left leg means to canter on the right lead. Pressure is extremely effective because horses are very sensitive to pressure and you can use it in ways that affect the horse's balance and gait, especially in higher levels of training. Clicker training is used occasionally, but it simply isn't very efficient for most riding purposes. Although I have seen it used with good results on extremely fearful horses.

I think we get carried away with the idea that all physical training equals abuse and punishment. If physical training was crual and abusive, you wouldn't be able to train riding horses this way. If you hurt a horse, they get fearful and horse are extremely dangerous when fearful. Horses tend to react most positively to the same things dogs do - good leadership and clear, well-timed cues. I've used positive reinforcement for good ground manners - like for picking up their feet for the farrier, but most training from the saddle was done with the use of well-timed pressure and release.

I might be way off base here, but I don't think espencer is saying that you can't train a dog or gorilla or chicken or rat with a clicker.  I think he's just saying that it's silly to compare training a whale or gorilla with training a dog.  If dogs out weighed us by 200 pounds, we'd have a totally different relationship with them.  I doubt he would of ever have become Man's Best Friend.

Sure, some techniques and theories do cross over and can apply to all animal training, but like he said, we don't live with those other animals in our homes. They're not held up to the same social expectaions as dogs are with humans.  They are contained in cages or pools.  They aren't let out in public crowds, even on a leash.  They can't jump up on our furniture, chase after cats, bite kids, steal food or attack strangers and other dogs.  Some behaviors can't be ignored that easily.

Can these behaviors be helped with a clicker?  Sure.  Will it work with every dog?  In my limited expirence it probably depends on the dogs drive and temperment, but I'm always trying to learn.  

The vast majority of Cesar's work concerns body language. Very little physical force. I know that you can train animals almost exclusively through positive reinforcement, but insinuating that ANY physical force is unecessary really isn't truthful. If we needed no physical interation to train a dog, then why do we have collars and leashes?

And saying that horses are trained without physical force is also incorrect. I've worked with horses for years. They can easily overpower people, but most training is done physically. How? Through pressure. Pressure on a lead rope teaches them to move to relieve the pressure. Pressure from the riders leg means move forward and the pressure is removed. Pressure from a rein means to turn to relieve that pressure. Pressure from and right rein and left leg means to canter on the right lead. Pressure is extremely effective because horses are very sensitive to pressure and you can use it in ways that affect the horse's balance and gait, especially in higher levels of training. Clicker training is used occasionally, but it simply isn't very efficient for most riding purposes. Although I have seen it used with good results on extremely fearful horses.

I think we get carried away with the idea that all physical training equals abuse and punishment. If physical training was crual and abusive, you wouldn't be able to train riding horses this way. If you hurt a horse, they get fearful and horse are extremely dangerous when fearful. Horses tend to react most positively to the same things dogs do - good leadership and clear, well-timed cues. I've used positive reinforcement for good ground manners - like for picking up their feet for the farrier, but most training from the saddle was done with the use of well-timed pressure and release.

 
Totally agree!

ORIGINAL: Trevell

I might be way off base here, but I don't think espencer is saying that you can't train a dog or gorilla or chicken or rat with a clicker.  I think he's just saying that it's silly to compare training a whale or gorilla with training a dog.  If dogs out weighed us by 200 pounds, we'd have a totally different relationship with them.  I doubt he would of ever have become Man's Best Friend.

Sure, some techniques and theories do cross over and can apply to all animal training, but like he said, we don't live with those other animals in our homes. They're not held up to the same social expectaions as dogs are with humans.  They are contained in cages or pools.  They aren't let out in public crowds, even on a leash.  They can't jump up on our furniture, chase after cats, bite kids, steal food or attack strangers and other dogs.  Some behaviors can't be ignored that easily.

Can these behaviors be helped with a clicker?  Sure.  Will it work with every dog?  In my limited expirence it probably depends on the dogs drive and temperment, but I'm always trying to learn.  

You absolutely can compare.  Basically, all we are talking about is learning theory, and why it works with *any* organism that has a brain capable of operant learning, which applies to humans, gorillas, marine mammals, chickens, rats, horses and *dogs*, among others.  If you think not, you simply don't understand the scientific body of knowledge on this subject, and nothing I say will probably convince any of you.  [8|]