question about Cesar Milan

As a rule, no. He recognizes different circumstances require different scenarios. For example, he specifically mentions how sled dogs must run in front, instead of walking behind the human, as he practices. But the sled dog world is a different place than the average home.
 
He constantly stresses the order, which I do not practice. I walk Shadow in harness, rather than a slipknot. Because of his unique metabolism, he eats most often right after a walk. We pratice obedience on and off, through the day or evening and we have affection in and around everything, except for wrong behavior. In a sense, Shadow does the order somewhat naturally. He wants to work for his meal, either by walking or fetching the ball (the "kill"). This is because his metabolism is keyed up by work or exercise. Most dogs are tired and calm after a walk, which is a good time to work on obedience and give affection, both being rewards for being calm. The point of only rewarding them when they are calm is so that they will identify calm with being rewarded. It is actually an elemental +R, positive reinforcement, a reward for wanted behavior, which is designed to encourage the behavior in hopes of a reward. The walk sees to their physical and psychological needs by providing an outlet. Many dogs were bred for a job based on their abilities. They must do it. With the walk comes the use of energy that could otherwise be directed in a direction we don't want. When the dog is no longer distracted by the need to pull, run, hunt, herd, whatever, they can concentrate on you for a treat or reward. Rewarding is based on the premise that creatures seek something. For many dogs, it is food. A dog responds to man more easily than a wolf and will do what the man asks for food. A wolf gets his own food, without the help of man. Daily practice of obedience provides the limits for the dog, how he must behave and where he fits in, as rank is important to a dog. When the dog knows where he belongs and is comfortable with that, there is less strife. Affection is also the reward for doing his job, being in his place, and reaffirming his sense of belonging to the group, a prime motivator for dogs, which are social creatures. I believe it is the packing mentality that makes them trainable.
 

+R actually stands for "positive reinforcement", but has sort of generically come to mean the method of training that utilizes operant and classical conditioning techniques.  If you are interested in this, some good books to read are:  "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller, and "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.  Another good one - "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.  Once you have read those three, you will probably have a good understanding of +R so that you can intelligently compare it with other methods.
The basis for the training is the use of a reinforcer, or, simply put, something that the dog wants that will tend to make a behavior recur.  A reinforcer can be: food, tennis ball, toy, attention, going outside, getting to chase the squirrel or play tug.  Whatever the dog is motivated by becomes the reinforcer.  So, the dog is working to gain something, not to avoid correction.  That is not to say that correction is never used in +R training, but the primary goal is not to have to do so.  We are striving to have the dog make right choices, and offer the behavior we want so that he can get what he wants.  NILIF.  The dog needs to work for everything.  That, rather pleasantly, puts the human in charge, without the need for physical manipulation of the dog.  Some trainers use lure-reward training, some use clicker training, some use voice markers, but properly applied, this method fades the use of food or excessive rewards, and replaces that with intermittent rewards, to keep behavior happening over the long term.  (Google on "intermittent reinforcement" or "variable reinforcement" to see what I mean.)  Clicker trained dogs tend to be comfortable enough to offer behaviors, so it's easy to teach them complex behaviors.  That's why quite a few of the service dog programs have now gone to clicker training.  It's a myth that clickers are only useful to train tricks.  They are useful to train any behavior you would like an animal to do.  I trained my horse to wait at the stall door on command, so that he would not rush by me on the way out to the paddock until I was ready to go forward.  I trained Sioux to retrieve that way, and never had to resort to holding her mouth closed on the dumbbell, or ear pinches, or any other physical manipulation.  (I used Lonnie Olson's method, from dogscouts.com, but there are others that use motivational techniques).  HTH clarify this for you.

ORIGINAL: faramir

does Cesar adjust his rule of THIS ORDER for different dogs in different situations?   i can understand dogs who had tough lives and are out-of-control need much more discipline, but i would think dogs with luckier lives and easier temperments would need a different formula.

 
No, the formula stays the same but as you said some dogs need more discipline than others, lack of discipline whatsoever will bring future problems, ie. one day he decide to sleep in your bed, if you dont apply discipline by not letting him doing it then he will do it more often,  you can give the smallest amount of discipline to your dog just to have him inside your "comfort zone"

his lack of discipline is not much of a problem....i can't even imagine using any technique that smelled of harshness.

 
I think you have hit on the head the most common misconception of CM's philosophy.  Be careful not to confuse discipline with harshness.  They are not one and the same.  By discipline, Cesar is referring to rules, boundaries and limitations....not abuse or harshness.  Meaning, if you are on a diet and faced with a huge plate of chocolate cake, you would use "discipline" to resist it.  Discipline comes from within.  People in the military have discipline 24/7.  My children are disciplined to know their rules, boundaries and limitations, but I don't hit my kids!   For a dog, discipline might be having your dog "sit" and "wait" before you give him the "okay" command to eat it. He must be "disciplined" to wait for that huge reward.   
 
Discipline is a challenge.  That is why the order of Cesar's method is important.  Like Ron stated, you don't want to give affection before anything else or you are in essence giving it away for free.  I personally practice NILIF or "No Free Lunch"  wherein the dog has to DO something before getting a reward such as affection.  If you give it away for free, you MAY have a harder time training your dog in obedience using +R because the reinforcer has now become almost meaningless. 
 
Cesar's "way" is to use those 3 things you mentioned, in that order, to get your dog "balanced" and in a calm submissive state.  If you have a dog in a calm submissive state, using +R obedince training is much easier than having a dog that is under exercised, hyper, and has zero discipline.  That's my take, maybe somebody else has a different one, but that's what I take away from Cesar's philosophy.

ORIGINAL: Mastiff 

Cesar's "way" is to use those 3 things you mentioned, in that order, to get your dog "balanced" and in a calm submissive state.  If you have a dog in a calm submissive state, using +R obedince training is much easier than having a dog that is under exercised, hyper, and has zero discipline.  That's my take, maybe somebody else has a different one, but that's what I take away from Cesar's philosophy.

 
This is the same principle I use. It's the starting point which is usually at issue when people are debating "training" vs "behavioral" and "social" problems. 
 
If you start from a "training" rather than a social and behavioral point of view, you can end up trying to shape instability (leadership issues), insecurity (fear, self esteme, leadership issues), and frustration (lack of fulfillment by nature or bred by man issues) - which I've found is best addressed socially, psychologically, and physically before shaping (training) is introduced. However, a really good trainer/behaviorist will know when to cross the lines and incorporate shaping tools, positive reinforcement, and positive association at the same time they are establishing leadership, setting boundaries, and addressing psycological issues.
 
Okay...now my brain hurts.[8D]
 
 

Ange,

Good post.  I have to agree with you.  I did not do that and ended up having to incorporate those techniques later to get control of a situation.  Once I did, the dog changed quickly.  I learned the hardway, I had a dog that would sit and stay and give paw but not give up his space or his resources.  NILIF, more exercise and the guidance of two wonderful behavorlist and we were able to turn him around.  No abuse, no pain just leadership.
 
I beleive now that had I done NILIF and leadership skills I wouldn't have had those problems.

Most positive trainers do use NILIF right from the beginning, so I don't think that premise is particular to them or CM.  The miscommunication comes when people assume that NILIF, or being a leader, means that you must "dominate" the dog.  Humans have done a lot of damage by overreliance on the idea of dominance.

NILIF.  The dog needs to work for everything.  That, rather pleasantly, puts the human in charge, without the need for physical manipulation of the dog.

I will use this method on any dogs I have in the future.  I cannot say enough good things about the effectiveness of it and also how much good it did for Willow.  I believe that me finding out about this method was one of the reasons I was able to keep her and keep her safely for the first few months that I had her. 
 

I did not do that and ended up having to incorporate those techniques later to get control of a situation.  Once I did, the dog changed quickly.  I learned the hardway, I had a dog that would sit and stay and give paw but not give up his space or his resources 

 
So many people I think go thru the same thing.  I've read so many posts here and also on my chow forum where people are totally confused about why the dog is growling at them when they ask him to move. . .they always say "we took him to classes".  It's two separate things, training commands and establishing leadership. 

all good explanations...thank you.
 
even with making the distinction between harshness and discipline, it still feels too disciplined for my taste...i like when sparky leads a huckleberry finn sort of existence...i think i  established some sort of daddy/alpha leadership when he was a puppy, and now we just sort of take it easy with each other...
 
he takes advantage at times, like sneaking into my bed in the middle of the night, but i feel that if i wanted to corrrect it, i could do it piecemeal, rather than maintain a disciplined structure to his life and our relationship.
 
he doesn't have to go to college, or earn a living, so i don't need him as disciplined as my kids.
 
i don't like making him sit before i give him something...there was a time as a pup that i had to do that, but not anymore.

Faramir--I can understand that not all dogs need to constant reminding of their place.  The test to me would be if your dog sneaks into your bed at night and you tell him to get off the bed, what would he do? 
 
If he just gets off no problem then I think your lifestyle is fine for him.  But, if he would refuse and growl if you pushed it then you might want to rethink things.

willow:

If he just gets off no problem then I think your lifestyle is fine for him. But, if he would refuse and growl if you pushed it then you might want to rethink things.

 
he wouldn't get off, but he wouldn't growl either...it would be similar to when my little kids came into my bed in the middle of the night...i would have to gently carry them out...and maybe make sure to keep the door closed the next night...the advantage of sparky over the kids is that he wouldn't cry by the door...he respects fences and closed doors.

I saw a CM clip with a news woman and her Golden Retriever. To me the dog was just fine. He waited before going out the door, although the woman let him go out first so that she could close the door. Then they all took a walk off-leash. The Golden was bouncing ahead a bit, but turned and came immediately when called. CM corrected the woman that she should always walk out the door first, even if it was inconvenient and that the dog should be behind her on walks.
 
This is too much structure for my taste. The woman and her dog seemed to have a safe, happy relationship and I don't feel it would be improved by having further control over an already obedient dog.
 
Just my opinion.

ORIGINAL: Stacita


This is too much structure for my taste. The woman and her dog seemed to have a safe, happy relationship and I don't feel it would be improved by having further control over an already obedient dog.

Just my opinion.

 
You cant figure out a relationship by just watching 30 seconds of their life, i am sure that if they were having a happy relationship CM would not be there then []

i am sure that if they were having a happy relationship CM would not be there then

 
Oh it wasn't a paid consult, it was a clip for a news show. So yes indeed, it is likely they had a happy life. Sorry I didn't make that too clear in the original post.