question about Cesar Milan

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Likewise a lot of the training that goes on in zoos is not for "tricks" but to allow the handlers to safely interact with the animals, give them their health checks, maintain their enclosures, do close-proximity research. The handles of these animals are very, very close to them. Just because they don't live in houses doesn't mean this isn't the case.

 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand like i said before:
 
"they are inside a cage and we are not really part of their family, if they consider us part of their family the situation would be different, we would be dealing with more psychological aspects of their life"
 
One thing is give them their health checks, maintain their enclosures, do close-proximity research, etc and another way different is to be part of our families and live together 24/7 just like we do it with our dogs
 
 

That tiger example is horrid.  Once Tiger's taste human flesh, they want more because we're slow and easy to kill!   We're not as agile or quick as an antelope or gazelle or water buffalo.  We take no effort to take down and destroy.  Predators go for the easy kill.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

That tiger example is horrid.  Once Tiger's taste human flesh, they want more because we're slow and easy to kill!   We're not as agile or quick as an antelope or gazelle or water buffalo.  We take no effort to take down and destroy.  Predators go for the easy kill.

The human diet makes our flesh and muscles having a better taste than an antelope that just eats grass, if you want to think that is only because we are slow or if you want to think is because our pretty faces thats ok, the point of the example is the same and thats why is not horrid, once they taste human flesh they dont want to go back to another one without matter whats the reason

ORIGINAL: Xeph
Once Tiger's taste human flesh, they want more because we're slow and easy to kill!   We're not as agile or quick as an antelope or gazelle or water buffalo.  We take no effort to take down and destroy.  Predators go for the easy kill.

 
I was gonna say that too hheheheh.        
 
The conversation about Gorrillas and other mammals is interesting too but i was under the impression that gorrillas are very intelligent animals, more so than any dog and for that reason alone you have to deal with them in a different manner.    I think dogs are much easier to train because they go more on instinct much of the time until that instinct is changed by humans.    A gorilla can use tools and is more human like so i would never use any cheap tricks to get that gorilla to follow you hehehe.       

ORIGINAL: espencer

The human diet makes our flesh and muscles having a better taste than an antelope that just eats grass, if you want to think that is only because we are slow or if you want to think is because our pretty faces thats ok, the point of the example is the same and thats why is not horrid, once they taste human flesh they dont want to go back to another one without matter whats the reason

According to what? (I'm imagining blind tiger taste tests )

I'd like to know where you got your information espencer.  As somebody who has been reading about tigers and studying about them since age 5, I really wonder where your logic comes from.
 
Throw a tiger a piece of meat, he's gonna eat that piece of meat, whether he ate human flesh before or not. /OT

ORIGINAL: inne

According to what? (I'm imagining blind tiger taste tests )

 
According to those really good diets rich in fat and calories which is not the same as a lean antelope with no as much fat as a human, but like i said, if you want to believe other reason thats ok, the point is the same  

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Throw a tiger a piece of meat, he's gonna eat that piece of meat, whether he ate human flesh before or not. /OT

Thats so dumb, of course that if there is nothing else to eat then he has not choice, now let him choose between rabbit meat or human meat and you will see the diference

Well of course you can teach a dog to bring a ball just as you can teach a dolphin to jump out of the water, no question about it, but of course you dont have whales, dolphins or gorillas living in the same place that you, they are not in your living room and walking around your house, if a gorilla could live with you in your house maybe he would be opening the fridge and finish everything inside in less than an hour

 
espence, have you ever tried to train a bird?  Birds can live with us inside our homes and they are very, very destructive and can cause severe injury.  You can't use force to train a bird.  Shunning isn't very effective either.  The only real way to train them is to use positive reinforcement to encourage them to perform behaviors again.  If you use the bridge at the right time, training is a snap, or a click. [] 
 
And if you've ever gotten a warning bite from a cockatoo, or an amazon, or a macaw- you know that it's much better to be on their good side.
 
That's how I learned of positive reinforcement.  Though I didn't have a name for it at that time.  I also used it to train a cat.  While it's true that the cat performed behaviors at a lower percentage rate than would be acceptable by a dog, it's still a decent accomplishment. 
 
So while I *get* your humor, it's not apropos, to think that we would bring gorillas into our homes.  They are wild animals, not domesticated for thousands of years like most dogs have been.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xeph

That tiger example is horrid.  Once Tiger's taste human flesh, they want more because we're slow and easy to kill!   We're not as agile or quick as an antelope or gazelle or water buffalo.  We take no effort to take down and destroy.  Predators go for the easy kill.

The human diet makes our flesh and muscles having a better taste than an antelope that just eats grass, if you want to think that is only because we are slow or if you want to think is because our pretty faces thats ok, the point of the example is the same and thats why is not horrid, once they taste human flesh they dont want to go back to another one without matter whats the reason

 
If we're so "good tasting" then why don't sharks actively hunt humans?  Most shark attacks are cases of mistaken identity.  White sharks will taste (take off a leg) and then not go back and finish the meal. 
 
Xeph's assessment is totally correct.  Easy prey.  Wolves don't actively hunt humans, nor do bears.  So you're way off base here too.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

So while I *get* your humor, it's not apropos, to think that we would bring gorillas into our homes.  They are wild animals, not domesticated for thousands of years like most dogs have been.

 
What? Gorillas wild animals??? no way!!!! no comment there
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Xeph's assessment is totally correct.  Easy prey. 
 

 
Easy prey fine, because we taste better, because we are pretty, because the moon is a natural sattelite, it does not matter:
 
T-h-e   p-o-i-n-t    i-s   t-h-e  s-a-m-e
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

If we were having our dogs 24/7 inside a cage from the day they are born just like any other wild animal i dont think we would be needing to do anything because they dont know any better, now since household dogs have "tasted" the freedom of walking around the house, the comfort of a human bed, the flavor of human food, etc then we "affect" their minds showing that if there is no discipline, boundries and limitations they could live an even "better" life (sleeping in human beds, eating better food and do whatever they want)

A good example are the tigers, once they taste the flavor of human flesh then they only look for humans to eat, any other flesh is not as better as the human one, same with dogs, when you give them a pice of leftovers like a piece of steak that you could not finish then the dog will be begging everytime you eat because the dog food is nothing next to a steak

So if any wild animal could live with us we would be having the same problems that we have with dogs but some of them would not think twice before "discipline" us instead

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we don't set boundaries. But I think our definitions of boundaries, prioritization of and ideas about how to set and enforce them are different.

There are some logical leaps you make in the quoted section that I question. Houndlove made really great points and here's my example: I can give my dog a piece of what I'm eating and yet she won't beg because she's been taught that begging isn't acceptable and, more importantly, it's ineffective. I don't have a kitchen table because my apartment doesn't have room for one. I have a coffee table and she could easily jump up there and eat anything she wants. It's the perfect height for food stealing. But instead she lies under the couch and rests while I'm eating because of positive reinforcement training. I could have trained her by pulling a leash or by pushing her off or by doing an alpha roll and, aside from the alpha roll (she's a soft dog and I'm sure she would have had serious issues with being alpha rolled), I'm pretty sure the end behaviour would have been the same as +R. But I think those methods are unnecessary when I had positive alternatives. We can have a happy, harmonious relationship full of boundaries and discipline and ALSO share a bed, share food, take turns walking through doorways, etc. because - aside from having a non-status seeking dog - I laid the groundwork with training that was comfortable for both of us and also nurtured the relationship as whole. If I got a Great Dane, I'd be SO grateful that I now know how to deal with training a dog without relying on physical methods, because many Great Danes outweigh me, out-muscle me AND they have much sharper teeth than I do - in me vs. Great Dane, the Great Dane would totally win unless I had effective alternatives to physical restraint or punishment.

I can also get a horse into a frame much better by rewarding and gently encouraging the behaviour rather than cranking him in and - this is huge, I think - I'll have a happier, more generous horse who wants to work with me, more authentic and effective contact with the horse and people who know horses will be able to tell a forced, cranked frame from a mile away.

My real point is that +R isn't just about teaching tricks like fetching a ball or doing a flip. You can use it to teach basic life skills and to set the boundaries needed for living together. It helps establish your relationship as a whole rather than just a specific novelty behaviour.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I just feel that CM takes these basic and pervasive problems (over-permissiveness and lack of exercise and stimulation) and goes way over-board with the solutions. It's like putting a thumbtack into a corkboard with a sledgehammer.

I completely agree with this statement.

ever uttering the word "dominance." Just stop giving the dogs what they want unless they do what you want. Works the same with kids, no? Yet we don't claim that a kid who's whining because whining has always worked to get a piece of candy is trying to be "dominant" or "alpha". He's just doing what he's been trained to do: whining=candy

 
To stop giving into dogs and decide how they will behave is dominance. A whiny kid will keep up his/her tantrums until they get what they want,  which makes them dominant. Unless the parent does not reward that behavior and only rewards the proper behavior, which makes the parent dominant, i.e., the kid will do things the parents' way, or no way.
 
Humans engage in dominant behavior. There's a little bitty scuffle called the Iraqi War you might have heard of. That's dominant aggressive behavior. There was a slightly larger disagreement called WWII. Two different cultures were vying for dominance and America won because we are the most vicious tribe and are the only nation to use tactical nuclear warheads in combat, twice.
 
3,000+ people died on 9-11-01 because some people want their religion and way of thinking to be dominant.
 
The squabbles and "debates" and arguments we have here are struggles for dominance, at least in ideology, if not in practical applications.
 
IMHO, the behavior of dolphins and whales are different than the behavior of canids. Unless, of course, a humback pod will fight and nip and mortally wound a rogue whale wanting to join in the feeding grounds.

Ok again:

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

If zoo personnel can train a gorilla (they do outweigh us) to present their genitalia at the bars of the cage for an examination, and if marine mammal trainers can train whales and dolphins to move about as directed, then why on earth can't we train dogs (who are social and cooperative by nature anyway) without physical restraint? 

Because it is NOT the same to have a gorilla, a dolphin or a whale in a cage or a pool that ACTUALLY living in the same space 24/7

You can NOT ask why it works with those big animals and we cant do the same with just dogs, it is not the same just going out with a friend that actually having that same friend as roomate, you may have to put up with more stuff that you would not because you dont live together, get it?

Thats why your example of training other animals with +R does not apply, because we dont live with those animals in their enviroment as we do it with our dogs

It's getting a bit off topic talking about wild animals as pets as opposed to dogs as pets[]
 
But, in my experience you need to use extreme positive training with wild animals.  My grandfather used to take in orphaned animals when my mother was growing up...there were no hunting seasons back then which left many baby animals orphans.  My grandfather brought up Black Bears which my mom has a picture some where of her in bed with.  He brought up raccoons, Moose, Deer, Ground Hogs, Fox, Coyote, Crows and of course he had all the farm animals as well...typical cows, horses, chickens etc.  
 
My grandfather was a gentle man and gained the respect of many people as he had such a way with animals.  He was never forceful, dominate or used any tactics that involved force.  Wild animals do not do well under force type situations.  The black bears lived with them throughout their lives and my grandfather taught them tricks etc.  He was one of those wonderfully quiet type persons that animals were just drawn to...I think that's were I got my love and patience for my current pets.  Same with our horses, one of our horses prior to our owing was harshly trained.  It took some time to gain her trust, but, now she will do anything and all due to positive training[]  
 
Here is a icture of my grandfather with his team of Moose...it's an old picture and survived a fire which is why it looks so tattered...it is also from the 1920's