question about Cesar Milan

When I first started to implement the NILIF rules I would make River wait for me to go out the door first.  It worked alright at that time becasue we were walking him to the yard to go potty.  That was partly because we were working on a recall, so he wasn't allowed off leash.  After that passed and we started allowing him outside w/freedom that method didn't work anymore becasue I wasn't going out.  So we began to make him sit, we open the door and release him to go outside.  Even if we are going out the door first we usually release him and then we follow.  The real benefit came with my 5 year old son.  He now's tells him to sit and can go in and out without the dog following him and knock him down.  I think this shows him more leadership than it did when I went out first.
 

"He now's tells him to sit and can go in and out without the dog following him and knock him down."
 
It think it is all about what suits your lifestyle. Knocking into kids in a mad rush to get out the door isn't acceptable, but for me sitting first then going down the steps works. I have mine wait before coming in the house because they get pretty muddy and a couple of minutes of wiping them down with a towel saves quite a bit of housework.
 
On off leash trails I have no problem with them being ahead of me and actually two of the three rarely require any recall. One likes to stay close, and the Malinois, true to his genetic heritage lopes in big circles around me herding me along. The lack of structure means that each dog gets the amount of exercise appropriate for them--a big plus.

the way i see it:
 
let's say, me and sparky got permanently lost in the woods, and a wolf pack accepted sparky into the group...and would only accept me if he took responsibility.
 
i would want him to teach me the rules that kept me safe...that kept me from annoying the other wolves, and to a certain extent, from annoying him...and hopefully to be of some service to the pack
 
but i would hope that he respected my dignity enough that there would be no gratuitous discipline or demand for obedience...just enough that i would respond properly when needed.
 
 

but i would hope that he respected my dignity enough that there would be no gratuitous discipline or demand for obedience...just enough that i would respond properly when needed.

 
You are either extremely lucky and have a well behaved dog without trying, or you have totally different boundaries than most people.  It's probably the latter, and that's your choice.
 
Most normal dog behavior isn't acceptable to MOST people in their homes or around people.  Therefore, having set boundaries, limits and discipline is necessary to ensure a peaceful co-existance. 
 
What anybody is willing to tolerate is up to them, not their dog.  Personally, I don't like animals on furniture or even in the kitchen where food prep is going on.  Therefore, that is not acceptable in our home.  Some people allow animals anywhere and everywhere in their homes and that's their acceptability threshold. 
 
I guess I don't really understand your analogy of the getting permanently lost in the woods scenario as it seems so remote!  I don't even know that a "pack of wolves" would allow a domesticated dog in the mix anyway.  Do you live in an area that has wolf packs hanging around in the woods??     

You are either extremely lucky and have a well behaved dog without trying, or you have totally different boundaries than most people

i am very lucky...he is well behaved...but there WAS trying...i read alot before i got him...i feel like i had a knack at handling him...and now it is mostly autopilot...i don't really ever think about discipline anymore...he's only nuts after a bath.

i do have different boundaries than a lot of people...i don't mind him on the couch, although it scratches the leather a little...i let him get dirty at the beach and park, but i use the old junky car, and get him clean before letting him free in the house.
---------------------------------
Mastiff:  I guess I don't really understand your analogy of the getting permanently lost in the woods scenario as it seems so remote!  I don't even know that a "pack of wolves" would allow a domesticated dog in the mix anyway

the analogy was not meant to be realistic...it was meant express the way i view dogs in our society...they are helpless here, but that doesn't mean they should be treated with less dignity than i think they deserve...
and i do think the wolves would accept him...he has a lot of social skill and flexibility.

Mastiff:

Most normal dog behavior isn't acceptable to MOST people in their homes or around people. Therefore, having set boundaries, limits and discipline is necessary to ensure a peaceful co-existance.

 
this actually brings me to something i think about...maybe the problem is that we are rude to our dogs by insisting on our human standards...and we could have a more peaceful co-existence by accepting some of THEIR standards.
 
for example...when i eat my meal, i do a "2 for me, 1 for you" thing with sparky...i hardly ever eat without sharing with him (healthy animal proteins)...my family thinks i'm nuts (they might be right)....but he is very calm about it, and he doesn't usually bother them, other than an intense quiet stare.
 
i just would find it rude to eat all this great food, and make him just stare and suffer....this way, we're just pals and life is relaxed.

but i would hope that he respected my dignity enough that there would be no gratuitous discipline or demand for obedience...just enough that i would respond properly when needed.

 
I think you've made a very good point. I think for safety's sake it is important to have a few commands very well mastered, but don't wear it out.
 
"I would want him to teach me the rules that kept me safe"
 
Wolfgang has a habit of finding small rocks and swallowing them when he's excited, which is always when he's about to meet a new person--That rocks his boat. Obviously in those situations, he needs to be watched and have a really solid "Drop It". He's had X-Rays at the e-vets for that. Teaching recall has been very important to me, because my dogs and I get to go a lot of places that wouldn't be safe without good recall.
 
I am, however, willing to put up with (and actually enjoy) some things that others consider misbehavior. If we are on leash, they like to stop and smell where other dogs have peed. OK as long as they don't drag me over to the spot. I like my dogs in front of me on a walk. They are a pleasure to look at. Off leash, I still get a little gasp of pleasure from just looking at them. I like my dogs on the bed. We have a very elderly cat that can't be fed from an elevated area and Wolfgang REALLY wants the remainder of her cat food. It isn't much and won't hurt him a bit and he always gets it before the other two dogs. Floyd REALLY wants to sleep between the humans and he always gets that. They compete for affection. Tasha likes adventure and seems to really appreciate outings by herself. So who really is the dominant dog here? Tasha. None of them have ever set tooth upon another except in play. They eat side by side, then lick each other's dishes. They occasionally growl at each other but never snap or snarl. Floyd loves to perform for us but really doesn't like strange people or dogs. He has a nervous disposition, probably partially from birth and artially from background. He was four or more when adopted.  Wolfgang loves everyone and every dog or cat and doesn't feel the need to be perfect. He's highly protective of the other dogs and has prevented fights when Tasha or Floyd got into bad situations. He's a very assertive dog and wouldn't do well as an only dog. Tasha is independent and good humored. She loves adventure. She is also a dominant dog. I've noticed that things Wolfgang & Floyd will growl about with each other do not elicit a growl when she does the same thing.
 
I'm sure people could pick apart a lot of things about our situation. But, really the goal is to have safe, happy, healthy dogs that don't annoy the heck out of you. Our breed mixes aren't considered the easiest in the world, but I feel happy rather than stressed that we live together. Tasha went to a professional groomer for the first time last summer at age six and a half, because my back needed a break. When I came to get her, the bill was 20 percent less than quoted, because "she was calm and easy to work with". Tasha's half Chow and I'm sort of used to people knocking Chows. She's also half Golden Retriever and has a terrific sense of play. Her puppy kindergarten teacher basically said that four of the dogs had problems. Tasha because she was part Chow, another full Chow, and two other mixed breed dogs that were adopted together. So really, what were we supposed to do? Get rid of them and go buy dogs that were more trainable? Tasha was voted Miss Congeniality of her class.
 
My advice to you would be to teach Sparky five basic commands.   Do it every single time type of commands. Examples would be to "Leave It", "Drop It", "Come", "Sit", but resist the urge to use it as a command unless you really need it. With a lot of dogs a command wears out. As Suzanne Clothier puts it, we all feel fine about making sure our dogs don't pee in the house, so why not for other things. What has worked for me is to have a different word for "You might be interested in coming but it's up to you". I live next door to a school and Tasha and Wolfgang are interested in meeting and greeting the employees as they go to work. Floyd is interested in making sure they don't climb the fence and break in. It isn't imperative that they come so I'll say something like "cuddle time", or "breakfast"  which leaves them a choice.
 
Tasha is a little more of the Huckleberry Finn type of dog and I'd really rather live with you and Sparky than in many places.
 
Now, to make a long ramble short, do some basic obedience for safety reasons. Don't allow Sparky to jump on people even if you enjoy it. Somebody's hip could break. But... Enjoy your dog.

Stacita,
i don't normally like long posts, but i enjoyed yours very much...i think it's great that you deal with each dog as an individual that doesn't have to fit a particular mold.
 
i have actually met a bunch of chow/golden mixes...funny that there should be so many...anyway, they were all great dogs.
 
actually, sparky jumping on people sometimes is the one issue i need to get under control...it's usually some one friendly we meet with a friendly dog...so they aren't the type to care too much, but i still want to control it.
 
as far as living with me and sparky, i'll let you know when my wife throws me out.

the dogs will attack it. the alphas do not necessarily attack first, nor do they signal for the other dogs to attack it
 
How do you know they don't? How do you know that via body cues or scents or heck even subsonic communication a la elephants...those two aren't controlling every single wolf's role?
 
They can't ALL jump on the deer's throat...they can't ALL run at the same speed after it or they will tire and the prey will not...SOME communication is taking place at all times or it'd be chaos. Whether the alpha pair direct that is really up for debate...but IMO the fact that they DO dictate when, where and what critter to hunt is not.

you are right. i was completely off base.

Gosh, sorry that was so long and almost a rant! I do strongly believe in the "Every Dog is Different" Philosophy.
 
There do seem to be a lot of Golden/Chows. Tasha is seven and extremely healthy. I think attitude counts.

Im reading all these post and many have the wrong idea about Ceasar Millan,  he isnt a dog trainer, he helps dog with behavior problems he doest train dogs to sit, come, rollover or kill lol.    Too many of you think that Ceasar is the devil just because he tugs a bit on a dog collar or because he puts dog on thier sides until they calm down.
 
I am not a polically correct person and i never will be but I dont find a thing wrong with his technique.    Oh just because some ASPCA person get up on their soap box and yells that he is hurting the poor thing by doing that lol.      Dont over react ppl its just a way to get the dog to calm down and in no way is it hurting it.     When an inmate in prison goes wild and starts hitting what do you think the guards do, give him a piece of beef jerky and tell him to calm down lol.   NO!!!   The guards put him down until he can be restrained and calms down.   What Ceasar does is something that need to be done.   Are there other ways of doing it?   Yes, and you are welcome to do them but just because you dont like his way doesnt mean its wrong, its just different and i now way does it hurt the animal.
 
Dont confuse or change what Mr Millan says please.    If you really listen to him, you will realize that his pack mentallity is true!       Dogs do display dominance towards others and if that dominance is not corrected then problems arrize.     I dont want anyone thinking that dominance means you have to hit, yell or just demoralize you dog into submission.   As Ceasar says, "calm assertive" is what you want to project and never has he ever punched a dog or done anything to harm a dog in any show you see.    
 
I just recently started watching him and i find his ideas to basically follow the laws of the wild because altimately your dog has that wild side of his/her and denying it to yourself will only cause you problems in the end.      Take some time to become familiar with your dogs orgins and what they are supposed to do.    Once you understand its history and pack behaviour i think will make you a better dog owner and dog friend.      Never use cruelty on a dog cause it only leads to more aggressive or mal adjusted dogs.      Look at all the literature and decide for yourself what you want for you dog and do it but never put down a system simply because its different from what you think.   You can agree or dissagree with it but one thing is for sure, If the system works dont fix it!
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: hydromora

Im reading all these post and many have the wrong idea about Ceasar Millan,  he isnt a dog trainer, he helps dog with behavior problems he doest train dogs to sit, come, rollover or kill lol.    Too many of you think that Ceasar is the devil just because he tugs a bit on a dog collar or because he puts dog on thier sides until they calm down.

I am not a polically correct person and i never will be but I dont find a thing wrong with his technique.    Oh just because some ASPCA person get up on their soap box and yells that he is hurting the poor thing by doing that lol.      Dont over react ppl its just a way to get the dog to calm down and in no way is it hurting it.     When an inmate in prison goes wild and starts hitting what do you think the guards do, give him a piece of beef jerky and tell him to calm down lol.   NO!!!   The guards put him down until he can be restrained and calms down.   What Ceasar does is something that need to be done.   Are there other ways of doing it?   Yes, and you are welcome to do them but just because you dont like his way doesnt mean its wrong, its just different and i now way does it hurt the animal.

Dont confuse or change what Mr Millan says please.    If you really listen to him, you will realize that his pack mentallity is true!       Dogs do display dominance towards others and if that dominance is not corrected then problems arrize.     I dont want anyone thinking that dominance means you have to hit, yell or just demoralize you dog into submission.   As Ceasar says, "calm assertive" is what you want to project and never has he ever punched a dog or done anything to harm a dog in any show you see.    

I just recently started watching him and i find his ideas to basically follow the laws of the wild because altimately your dog has that wild side of his/her and denying it to yourself will only cause you problems in the end.      Take some time to become familiar with your dogs orgins and what they are supposed to do.    Once you understand its history and pack behaviour i think will make you a better dog owner and dog friend.      Never use cruelty on a dog cause it only leads to more aggressive or mal adjusted dogs.      Look at all the literature and decide for yourself what you want for you dog and do it but never put down a system simply because its different from what you think.   You can agree or dissagree with it but one thing is for sure, If the system works dont fix it!

 
I agree, actually if you could read some past  osts some people like us have trying to say the same for years but people just dont want to listen, actually they created this part of the forum because we were dicussing those points over and over and we didnt get anywhere
 
About pinning down a dog well that is not always the solution CM uses all the time, some people abuse that technique thinking they have to do it every single time even when the only thing they have to do is just  project the right energy, people use the wrong techniques for the wrong reason sometimes

ORIGINAL: hydromora

Im reading all these post and many have the wrong idea about Ceasar Millan,  he isnt a dog trainer, he helps dog with behavior problems he doest train dogs to sit, come, rollover or kill lol.    Too many of you think that Ceasar is the devil just because he tugs a bit on a dog collar or because he puts dog on thier sides until they calm down.

I am not a polically correct person and i never will be but I dont find a thing wrong with his technique.    Oh just because some ASPCA person get up on their soap box and yells that he is hurting the poor thing by doing that lol.      Dont over react ppl its just a way to get the dog to calm down and in no way is it hurting it.     When an inmate in prison goes wild and starts hitting what do you think the guards do, give him a piece of beef jerky and tell him to calm down lol.   NO!!!   The guards put him down until he can be restrained and calms down.   What Ceasar does is something that need to be done.   Are there other ways of doing it?   Yes, and you are welcome to do them but just because you dont like his way doesnt mean its wrong, its just different and i now way does it hurt the animal.

Dont confuse or change what Mr Millan says please.    If you really listen to him, you will realize that his pack mentallity is true!       Dogs do display dominance towards others and if that dominance is not corrected then problems arrize.     I dont want anyone thinking that dominance means you have to hit, yell or just demoralize you dog into submission.   As Ceasar says, "calm assertive" is what you want to project and never has he ever punched a dog or done anything to harm a dog in any show you see.    

I just recently started watching him and i find his ideas to basically follow the laws of the wild because altimately your dog has that wild side of his/her and denying it to yourself will only cause you problems in the end.      Take some time to become familiar with your dogs orgins and what they are supposed to do.    Once you understand its history and pack behaviour i think will make you a better dog owner and dog friend.      Never use cruelty on a dog cause it only leads to more aggressive or mal adjusted dogs.      Look at all the literature and decide for yourself what you want for you dog and do it but never put down a system simply because its different from what you think.   You can agree or dissagree with it but one thing is for sure, If the system works dont fix it!

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of any training or behavior modification method, then please do visit the other sections that deal with training and behavior and we can discuss behavioral theory till the cows come home.  This section was intended for those who like CM to be able to discuss his work, not for his aficionados to continue to throw barbs at those "ASPCA types" (whatever that means) who don't agree with his methods. 

ORIGINAL: hydromora

Im reading all these post and many have the wrong idea about Ceasar Millan,  he isnt a dog trainer, he helps dog with behavior problems he doest train dogs to sit, come, rollover or kill lol.

He might not train dogs in the traditional sense of the word, but if he doesn't know HOW to train dogs, then he's a rotten dog behaviour specialist. Whether he trains or not is a moot point to me. A good behaviourist should understand how the mind of a dog works, and a good trainer knows enough about behaviour to be able to find ways to influence it. So they're pretty much one and the same. It's imperative to understand how different training methods work if you're a behaviourist, and it's imperative to know why dog's behave they way they do so you can influence that behaviour if you're a trainer.

See my point? It's the same vital knowledge for trainer and behaviourist.