Need help with Extremely Aggressive Dog!

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

Some Pits can live happily with all manner of other animals, and some can't.

IMO, the truth of the capacity for aggression/rehabilitation of this particular dog, Kaiser, is unknown by all of us who responded to the OP, since none of us has met or evaluated the dog. The OP can report personal observations, and posters can respond back with generalized experience and knowledge.

A behaviorist or trainer would take a detailed history and then meet the dog and conduct temperment testing to evaluate the dog's behaviors, and make recommendations based on his/her professional opinion.

ORIGINAL: jen22
So far I know that he does not like little dogs, I think because when he was about 7 months a doxie bolted out of the owners house after him and bit him in the hind leg, he grabbed the doxie but not hard. He doesnt respond so much to bigger dogs though

I didn't know about my dogs bite inhibition (how hard she bites), so I took great precautions to keep her mouth from meeting anything it could damage. My dog's play bite with humans is soft, and in a couple of scuffles with other dogs, she never bit them (even though she was bit by them). About a month ago, a persistent (and darling) pittie pup got past me and close enough to get up into Ixa's face and pester her. Ixa took the pup's ear in her mouth, but did not peirce it. The pup scuttled back, having simply been taught some manners. This has helped me to better understand my dog's capacity and internal guage regarding biting.

A behaviorist or trainer would take a detailed history and then meet the dog and conduct temperment testing to evaluate the dog's behaviors, and make recommendations based on his/her professional opinion.

I do evaluations, and can tell you that trainers and behaviorists do not like to use their own dogs as "bait" to test a dog for DA, so the owner-provided history becomes important, but again, being nice to other dogs in puppyhood, or young adulthood is NOT a predictor that they will always be nice.  You can test them today and the DA switch goes off tomorrow.  Suggesting that some dogs can live with other dogs indefinitely is accurate, but it is not representative of many of the individuals withing these breeds, and suggesting it to an uninitiated audience could cause someone out there to make a serious mistake in the management of a dog.  When that happens with APBT's and AmStaffs, it can cost the dog its home or its life.  JMHO, but I suggest exercising caution in advising others if you have not dealt with these breeds extensively.  [sm=2cents.gif] 

Please remember, the more mistakes made, the likelier BSL is to happen.  Err on the side of caution.

there is no need to go in circles

I completely agree with you here.  And it will not help the OP no matter what, if anything is decided.

To the OP:  Thanks for asking for advice.  There has been a bunch of good advice given on this thread and I sincerely hope that you post continual updates to let us know.  []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

A behaviorist or trainer would take a detailed history and then meet the dog and conduct temperment testing to evaluate the dog's behaviors, and make recommendations based on his/her professional opinion.

I do evaluations, and can tell you that trainers and behaviorists do not like to use their own dogs as "bait" to test a dog for DA,

Spiritdogs, thanks for both providing your professional opinion, and for pointing to the range of approaches dog professionals take regarding their work. [] I am personally familiar with a dozen trainers who do bring their dogs along as partners in assessing/rehabilitating dog reactivity and aggression. Patricia McConnell and Cesar Millan write about this in their books as well. Seeing as they work in a controlled, expert manner, none of these professionals would ever categorize this practice as using their dog as "bait." On the other hand, I also know a handful of trainers who, like you suggested, don't bring their dogs into this kind of work, ever.

In a related topic, here's a thread on using "packs" for socialization:http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=413777

Should the OP ever seek a professional consultation, there are plenty of approaches to choose from, depending on comfort level.

The trainer we worked with for Ivan's issues uses his dogs when testing for DA.  In fact, he says he lets his dogs tell him what they think of the dog in question.  He is also confident that his dogs would take a bite before breaking a down-stay.  I don't think it has ever come to that, but I admire his approach of "listening" to his dogs

ORIGINAL: ron2

And I would like to add that aggression is not always a sign of an imbalanced state of mind. Sometimes, the dog senses or sees something and reacts in a perceived action of self defense. This doesn't excuse aggression, per se. But, as Dunbar would point out, not all aggression is a sign of a problem, but merely a dog's expression, albeit, one we wish to control or mediate.

Very nice point. I think it's the height of anthropormorphism (something we're constantly lectured against) to assume that a dog is "unstable" merely because it's behavior doesn't comport with our own----or our limited understanding of what we deem to be appropriate at the time.

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I know an akita-mastiff mix who clearly ENJOYS fighting with other dogs. He's not "unstable" or "unbalanced".  He thinks it's fun to be aggressive. He goes around deliberately provoking other dogs into attacking him, and then he beats them up.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I know an akita-mastiff mix who clearly ENJOYS fighting with other dogs. He's not "unstable" or "unbalanced".  He thinks it's fun to be aggressive. He goes around deliberately provoking other dogs into attacking him, and then he beats them up.

 
That would be the first animal on earth that enjoys being stressed and tense

That would be the first animal on earth that enjoys being stressed and tense

 
I know alot of humans that enjoy fighting.  Some even do it professionally.
 
[sm=backtotopic.gif]
 
It's clear that right now it's just banter amongst two schools of thought.  We'll go 'round and 'round with no progress and no further help to the OP.  Another thread might be in order here.[]

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

That would be the first animal on earth that enjoys being stressed and tense

I know alot of humans that enjoy fighting.  Some even do it professionally.

[sm=backtotopic.gif]

It's clear that right now it's just banter amongst two schools of thought.  We'll go 'round and 'round with no progress and no further help to the OP.  Another thread might be in order here.[]

 
Yeah i know that comment was coming [], i agree that maybe we should just wait for the OP to come back and report the update to us so we can plan the next step [8D]

Mod's note:

Ladies and Gentlemen ... [8|]

what did you do with the other 1/3 of the equation, the chihuahua? did the chihuahua automatically disengage once shadow disengaged?

 
The Chi kept barking but maintained his distance while his owner picked him up and I re-leashed Shadow.
 
As for what would happen with a larger dog who is not responding to commands, there are a few options. Control Shadow and hope the other animal backs off. If not, then there is the possibility that Shadow might teach him a lesson before I could do anything. Third option, I will drop kick the other dog for a 20-yard 3-pointer.
 
The situation has happened a number of times, which is why I quit walking Shadow here in town for quite some time. Loose, aggressive, untrained dogs coming after us. I would be leading Shadow backwards in a circle trying to keep the other dog away. I was carrying a 4 foot piece of 1/2 electrical pipe to use as a barrier and only strike if needed. I never did strike. Then, I was carrying a pooper scooper. It had a calming effect on a Blue Heeler. He sniffed it one time and then he was cool with Shadow. Another time, a vicious dog jumped out of his yard and wouldn't let us go either way. A man who's house I had been standing in front of had been chased by that dog, before. He called the police and said, "if you don't come out here and do something about this dog, I will shoot it." That got an immediate response. The dog had gotten back into his yard but he still charged the fence when the police officer stepped near. I guarantee you the cop would have shot for center of mass if that dog had jumped the fence again.
 
If I could not shoo away the other dog or get us out of there, as much as I hate to do it, I would release Shadow to give him a fighting chance. But not always. Two pekinese would roam the streets and then circle us in pack-hunt formation. The braver one charged and Shadow grabbed him by the scruff and shook the bejesus out of him. He released to get a better bite and the dog wisely took off for his yard. I did not release Shadow.
 
So, in the end, I see to it, as best as I can, that we don't walk where or when I think the dogs will be loose.

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Espence, I am sorry if you felt attacked. That was not genuinely not my intention. I would have been genuinely interested to hear of your experience with pitts and similar breeds, as what you are saying is different to others who own/work with this type. And having somethin "different" is very valuable, otherwise we would all be nodding and saying "yes, yes, i agree" Very boring and not half as educational. *Content removed.[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=297451&mpage=1&key=񙄳]See forum rule 7.[/link]*