Need help with Extremely Aggressive Dog!

That's wonderful Jen!  Just be aware that set backs and plateaus are normal.  Don't get discouraged when you get to one of those patches.  Sounds like you're well on your way to having the family member you want and deserve.[]

Yeah, I look forward to those [&o]. But I will persist! 

ORIGINAL: jen22

I'm not ever expecting to be able to take my dog to the dog park again because I know that is something that will NEVER happen again. I just want to be able to manage his behaviors. I dont think that always being ready to pounce is healthy. I think that so far I have come a long way but these things do take time and there are still behaviors that I would like to correct. I jusst ordered the Click to Calm book and bought a Sporn Halter becaue I was worried he could slip out of an Easy Walk. You all are so helpful I am so appreciative for your advice. 

I'm really glad you are opting for extra caution as a responsible owner. []  You need to be aware that, while "being ready to pounce" doesn't necessarily mean that your dog will hurt another dog, he will always be perceived that way by the general public that does not necessarily want to give any leeway to large, imposing, breeds.  Anyway, you will find that "Click to Calm" proceeds in a very logical way, easy to follow.  Another member of the board, Willowchow, has an aggressive dog that she manages - you might want to check in with Lori now and then for some support.  Also, be aware that even when you are able to manage your dog much better, aggression never really goes away, it's just that, well, you are able to manage the dog so as not to have him triggered so often.  It's hard to manage such dogs, but is certainly possible, and will give you really valuable dog handling skills for the future. 

Cita, you are correct.  A dog can be made manageable in the presence of other dogs, but that doesn't lessen the responsibility that every Pit, AmStaff, Akita, Rottweiler, etc. owner has to make sure that there are no "accidents".  This is not just a discussion on a message board about whether a guy on a TV show could help this dog, it's about whether the owner in day to day real life can do it.  For that, she needs more than a youtube video, she needs a valid protocol that she can do herself, or a local trainer or behaviorist to assist her.  And, I absolutely agree with Jen's point, that you repeated.  This has a lot to do with what you transmit down the leash - but that's the point of "Click to Calm", "Feisty Fido", Scaredy Dog" and all the others that address this - don't transmit fear or anger, and get the dog to focus on the handler.

Jen22, it sounds like you are doing all the right things.
 
I fostered a leash reactive dog, with a mostly unknown history.  When I first got her she was reactive to any dog within sight, scent or hearing.  When she went to her forever home I had the distance down to about 10-25 feet depending upon breed and color of the other dog.  It took me about 7 months to get it down that far.
 
You're already ahead of the game and doing wonderfully well.  Keep going with the management techniques and the program that you're on.  AmStaffs are very people oriented dogs and really do want to please, it seems to me that you've keyed in on this.  Keep up the good work!

Hooray, Jen! Hooray Kaiser!

I don't know first hand about how much you can socialize any or every amstaff, pitbull or chow, but I do have an ACD/chow mix that goes to dog daycare with a bunch of pitties, amstaffs, GSDs, and chows. Can't say I've seen any akitas there. [8D]

With my dog, I just decided that she wasn't gonna be dog aggressive, and worked from there, keeping her and others safe as I did so. Here's a link to some things that helped us:http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=353675&mpage=1&key=leash%2Caggression񖖬

I think that lots of times we get the outcomes we expect, like you did yesterday with Kaiser! []

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

That is nice and all, but it has nothing to do with dog aggression in APBT's and Amstaffs.  Just as a greyound has been selectively bred for a high prey drive and cannot be trusted off leash, APBT's and Amstaffs have been selectively bred for dog aggression and "gameness."   This is not aggression as it occurs towards humans.  Socialization helps, but you simply cannot train dog aggression out of every pit type dog. 

Your example does not apply, agression is an unstable state of mind, prey drive is not, APBT's and Amstaffs have more chances to "fall" in that unestable state of mind but if you fufill all their needs those dogs can be as good as any other

A good example is in this video, 2 Pitbulls, breed to attack other dogs, one is very unestable and ready to attack, the other one is the perfect example that when you fufill his needs he does not feel he has to do what he was "breed for" (dont do this at home)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4

This video is to illustrate to the OP that yes, there is hope and the dog can be totally rehabilitated but it will take time and energy to do it

Espence, I have to disagree with you completely on this one.  I've had plenty of experience (hands on) with Amstaffs and Pitties that were and are well bred, well socialized, well exercised and well fed.  At some point all of them had their DA switch turned.  Usually it's around the 2-3 year old stage.  I'm sure that there are some non DA pitties, amstaffs, cane corsos, Tosas, Presas, BTs and Neos out there, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

I've seen it happen in an AmStaff as young as 6 months, and she is a gorgeous sweetheart of a show dog. 

Proper management of the dog is key.  Do not put your dog in situations where aggression is possible and your dog won't have the chance to prove the stereotypes right.
 
 
And if the quote from CM at the end of the video is true ("This is as bad as it gets.")  Then I've had alot more experience in dealing with "red zone" dogs than he has.

To Spiritdog I am 100% sure that he is aiming to  hurt the other dog as I have had a few scuffles with him in the past, with people who walk their dogs off leash. When I do encounter this I cross the street make him sit and let the other person know that my dog is aggressive so they can take the proper precautions with their animals.

So far I know that he does not like little dogs, I think because when he was about 7 months a doxie bolted out of the owners house after him and bit him in the hind leg, he grabbed the doxie but not hard. He doesnt respond so much to bigger dogs though

ORIGINAL: jen22

To Spiritdog I am 100% sure that he is aiming to  hurt the other dog as I have had a few scuffles with him in the past, with people who walk their dogs off leash. When I do encounter this I cross the street make him sit and let the other person know that my dog is aggressive so they can take the proper precautions with their animals.

So far I know that he does not like little dogs, I think because when he was about 7 months a doxie bolted out of the owners house after him and bit him in the hind leg, he grabbed the doxie but not hard. He doesnt respond so much to bigger dogs though

 
Sometimes, dogs that are not DA can go after small dogs that run, due to predatory drive.  But, you are right to exercise caution.  Ixas_girl makes this point:

I just decided that she wasn't gonna be dog aggressive

But, while it's good not to assume that your dog is going to be horrible, it's still best to assume the worst in terms of how diligently you manage such a dog, since with this breed, you can never really be 100% sure unless something really happens.  And, it sure isn't worth it to let something happen.  Sometimes, wishing simply doesn't make it so.

And I would like to add that aggression is not always a sign of an imbalanced state of mind. Sometimes, the dog senses or sees something and reacts in a perceived action of self defense. This doesn't excuse aggression, per se. But, as Dunbar would point out, not all aggression is a sign of a problem, but merely a dog's expression, albeit, one we wish to control or mediate.
 
For example, one time, Shadow got meet a Chihuahua. The little dog got scared and started barking and baring teeth. Shadow then returned in kind. I called off and he disengaged in mid-snarl. He was simply reacting to the situation as best he could until I stepped in. To an outsider, it would have appeared that Shadow was aggressing against the Chi. People assume the small dog is never at fault. They're just supposed to yap and act tough. But the Chi started it, which caused Shadow to engage, and I stopped it.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Espence, I have to disagree with you completely on this one.  I've had plenty of experience (hands on) with Amstaffs and Pitties that were and are well bred, well socialized, well exercised and well fed.  At some point all of them had their DA switch turned.  Usually it's around the 2-3 year old stage.  I'm sure that there are some non DA pitties, amstaffs, cane corsos, Tosas, Presas, BTs and Neos out there, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

I've seen it happen in an AmStaff as young as 6 months, and she is a gorgeous sweetheart of a show dog. 

Proper management of the dog is key.  Do not put your dog in situations where aggression is possible and your dog won't have the chance to prove the stereotypes right.

I think they are the exception rather than the rule because most of the owners out there dont know how to deal with it, if the owners could be more knowledgeable about how to preven it before it shows up then i'm sure it would be the other way

All of them could be the exception but you have to prevent the dog to get to that point, any dog "likes" to be aggressive, it takes away physical and mental energy, it makes the dog tense and stressfull, it does not matter if is a dog, a cat, a bird, etc those symptoms do not feel good to anybody, everybody would rather not to feel that way, is just that those breeds have more "easyness" to get to that point than others but that does not man the want or like to be that way

Yes i agree 100% with "Proper management of the dog is key.  Do not put your dog in situations where aggression is possible and your dog won't have the chance to prove the stereotypes right."

Proper management could turn all of them into good behavior and make that the rule instead of the exception

Espence, do you have any direct experience with bully breeds?  Have you ever owned one?  I am thinking of the other members here who do own APBTs and other bully breeds, and as far as I can recall, what you are saying contradicts what they say about their own breed.

I do not think the AmStaffs and Pitties that Ed has had experience with are the exceptions to the rule.  They sound precisely like typical AmStaffs and Pitties.  Ed's comments are in line with those of knowledgeable breeders and rescues.  You are a lone voice here, methinks.
 
To the OP: Your dog does not sound like an unusual case to me.... and kudos for you for the effort you are putting in to manage and train your dog![sm=bravo.gif]

For example, one time, Shadow got meet a Chihuahua. The little dog got scared and started barking and baring teeth. Shadow then returned in kind. I called off and he disengaged in mid-snarl. He was simply reacting to the situation as best he could until I stepped in. To an outsider, it would have appeared that Shadow was aggressing against the Chi. People assume the small dog is never at fault. They're just supposed to yap and act tough. But the Chi started it, which caused Shadow to engage, and I stopped it.

what did you do with the other 1/3 of the equation, the chihuahua? did the chihuahua automatically disengage once shadow disengaged?

my question for ya is this - what if it was a larger dog that was dominant and agressive. say that you got shadow to sit and such, but the other dog kept coming. what would you do in a situation like that where commands only work with your dog but do nothing to prevent the other dog from attacking or charging?

(this kinda stuff does happen)

We have a pitbull rescue in my area, and this is what they have to say on their website:

"If you want a dog that you can take to the dog park, then this is probably not the right dog for you. Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting purposes, and as much as some well-meaning people say that this can be 'trained' out of them, it can't. They can be trained to control their impulses, but it will never really leave them. Some Pits can live happily with all manner of other animals, and some can't. There is an old adage that all Pit Bull owners know, and that is "Never trust a Pit bull not to fight'. They have to be carefully watched in the presence of other animals, so please be aware."

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I do not think the AmStaffs and Pitties that Ed has had experience with are the exceptions to the rule.  They sound precisely like typical AmStaffs and Pitties.  Ed's comments are in line with those of knowledgeable breeders and rescues.  You are a lone voice here, methinks.

My answer to that would be exactly what i said in my last post, there is no need to go in circles