UPDATED: Reactive or Agressive dogs in Beginner Agility!

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

And yet you advocate using your hands arms with/during the body block.

No one in their right freeking mind is going to allow 2 prey driven larger dogs to surround/nip their little dog, just so they can practice body blocking....or even to prove that body blocking will work.

That is putting the poor little thing in "bait" status.

Get a grip. No one is willing to take a chance like that with their dog. You pick the thing up even if there is a slight possibility of the dogs coming near it.

Can you quote me the part where i said use your hands to do a body block? i remember i said in case is carrying an umbrella or a stick

Here is a webpage where you can find the nearest hospital so people can go and get their arms cured [] [linkhttp://www.revolutionhealth.com]http://www.revolutionhealth.com[/link], and this one so people can find a psychologist to help them with the trauma of being attacked by dogs [linkhttp://www.alijor.com]http://www.alijor.com[/link]

Well, I've been biten (in the face, not the arms--and at a pretty impressional age--7 yrs), and found the stitches much more traumatic then the actual bites.  However, I can tell you that that simply would not compare to the trauma of seeing my dog ripped to shreds before my eyes.

the owner then can body block without being in danger as much since the dog is still on the ground and the dogs just will try to go around the owner,

 
 
I wouldn't recommend this. Tried it with a cat once and I just got flattened by the incoming dog in high prey drive who didn't even notice the silly human standing in the way. Cat barely made it up a tree.
I like the umbrella idea though.

I might just be being thick here but could someone clarify something for me?  In what context is the body block being suggested?  Body blocking her OWN dog or body blocking the "aggressor"? 
 
I really can't see the point in body blocking her own dog.  And I suspect CM would not recommend body blocking the other dog either.  I think he would suggest the umbrella idea, which I am in agreement with.  I don't think he would recommend using a body block with any dog "cold".  He himself "gets to know" the dogs he works with before doing ANYTHING with them; often by taking them for a walk.... So I'm really not sure how the body block is being advised to be used here.  Could someone put me straight????

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I wouldn't recommend this. Tried it with a cat once and I just got flattened by the incoming dog in high prey drive who didn't even notice the silly human standing in the way. Cat barely made it up a tree.
I like the umbrella idea though.

 
What would happen if you pick up the cat?

lol! [] Would make a great Buster Keaton bit!

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Look, folks, have you been to a beginner level agility class lately? Have you been reading the reports here, over the past few months, of people who have? There are way too many amped up dogs in the hands of people who have no idea how to handle that energy! Too many dog fights, too many dogs getting away from handlers, too many handlers are too freaked out.

All the beginner agility classes and workshops I've been to, or observed, *are* ridiculous. Dogs are being worked up into treat frenzies (as if agility isn't exciting enough already), and many of the handlers don't have even the slightest grasp of basic obedience. And I'm one of the very few using a clicker.

Why give a hyped up dog a treat for running through a tunnel, when it's clear she really enjoys doing it? Fine; offer a treat to coax a disinterested pug or dane ... but otherwise, what's the point? The fiercest look I've ever seen on my ACD mix's face has been during clicker training - yes, treat frenzy. In agility, I'm careful about how I treat, and do it sparingly. One set of jumps, or a fly through the tunnel sets my dog into lift off!

You should not treat beyond your level of control!

The reason the folks in the advanced class next door can leave their dogs off leash and still have them focusing in working drive is that they have control of their dogs! I also don't see nearly as much treating going on over there.

OTOH, I will say that there's a lot of mislabeling of overly hyper dogs as "aggressive." But here again, when you've got a bunch of beginners together with a bunch of hyped up dogs ... inexperience leads to all kinds of anxieties.

All I want to know is where the heck do you go to agility class?  Very few people here are having the problems you describe.  My guess is that mudpuppy is closer to the truth than you realize.  The reason for the agitation in beginner classes is NOT that the dogs are necessarily aggressive.  It's FRUSTRATION behavior - because they are leashed.
[8|]

Firestorm, there is nothing wrong with your dog socializing with larger dogs - but, smaller dogs who do that are always at risk.  The usual rule is that the smaller dog should not weigh less than half what the larger dog weighs.  That said, my 28 pound Aussie plays with Great Danes and other much larger dogs. []  But, I do monitor the action and if they get too ramped up, I call her back to me to wait out the Dane "zoomies".  Ultimately, if you are not comfortable with a particular dog in class, it may be best just to switch class, even if you just go to a different class with larger dogs.
The idea of body blocking someone else's dog in full predatory drive is ludicrous.  Not only will they not even see you sometimes, if they do, they may think you want their prey and some will attack you.  Not good.  The best defense is to have an object handy - even a notebook,  or some Direct Stop.  But, if you are that worried about one dog, don't attend class with him.  If the instructor has that much concern, she should be asking the other owner to muzzle the dog until they can determine if he is simply drivey, or really predatory.  In this case, it's not a matter of who's right, it's a matter of keeping your own dog safe. 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Another thing not yet mentioned, if a true dogfight were to break out, I would expect the instructor to know what to do and be prepared for that (and any) situation.  If kids are fighting on a playground, we expect the supervisor to step in and deal with it, we don't expect the other kids to know how to handle it, nor do we want them to.

At our training center, you would be correct.  We handle the tiffs, not the clients.  In fact, clients are not permitted to discipline any dog but their own.

What would happen if you pick up the cat?

 
probably get clawed to pieces by the cat and then get flattened by the dog?  

It really is more helpful when posters read the thread before making hasty and simplisticly contrary comments founded on biased and inaccurate assumptions!

This way, everyone can cooperatively build the thread with others, and debate actual differences rather than invented ones! []

but invented ones are so much more interesting! 
 
yeah, beginner agility classes are chaotic and crazy and often the owners are clueless and the dogs are frenzied and misbehave. That's why they are in BEGINNER CLASS.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

but invented ones are so much more interesting! 

yeah, beginner agility classes are chaotic and crazy and often the owners are clueless and the dogs are frenzied and misbehave. That's why they are in BEGINNER CLASS.

Haha. try training in a bedroom sized room, with 20 other dogs! That, even for an advanced dog, it HORRIBLE!

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
but invented ones are so much more interesting!

When they are thoughtful, provocative, and productive ... agreed! [sm=bravo.gif]


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ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

What would happen if you pick up the cat?

probably get clawed to pieces by the cat and then get flattened by the dog?  

 
Thank you [8D]

I've been at the other end of this. Sometimes it can be handled one way, sometimes another - it depends on what's going on in the dog's head and the ability of the instructor to recognize it.

My first really hard core sports dog was quite dog aggressive (fear aggression). By the time I was taking classes with her, you'd never have known it for the most part. With her, I trained very intensely at home, got her "hooked" on the job she was supposed to do, and then worked in public. I did both agility and flyball with her - flyball, particularly successfully. With her, knowing what she was supposed to do thoroughly, before she was challenged with the social situation, was the key to success with her.

I've also had two Border Collies that were frothing at the mouth crazy - not aggressive, just on the verge of out of control. With both of them, I again worked on the mechanics of what they were supposed to be doing, apart from class or practice, and then during actual exposure to the environment, I worked on keeping them calm and focused on me. I worked on one of my dogs for about a year before I started him in competition.

I can imagine it would be difficult for an instructor to go up to someone and say, "Look, I know you are paying through the nose for agility instruction, but your dog needs to take a step back here and learn some basics or you will have a miserable time in this class and possibly it will hamper your entire future career in this sport."

This happens in herding clinics all the time. Someone will introduce themselves and say, "My dog is having trouble driving the sheep in a straight line on the advanced courses." And then the instructor will look at what's going on and say, "Let's work on the dog listening to you when you ask for a 'Lie down' - and let's do it in the little pen." The big difference of course is that herding instructors are often respected more like gurus and so it's rare that the hapless clinic attendee fails to swallow his pride and go along with the suggestion to start at square on, basically. []

ORIGINAL: belgmal_girl

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

but invented ones are so much more interesting! 

yeah, beginner agility classes are chaotic and crazy and often the owners are clueless and the dogs are frenzied and misbehave. That's why they are in BEGINNER CLASS.

Haha. try training in a bedroom sized room, with 20 other dogs! That, even for an advanced dog, it HORRIBLE!

 
Where do you train?  A closet?  [sm=devil.gif] 
I know what you mean, though.