"Aggressive" "Reactive" -- Either way, this book looks good...

It's not wrong to NOT stop the clicker but what I can't figure out, still, is why you walk her at all. I understand the need for exercise, but she is clearly confused and anxious out walking.

I wouldn't walk her for now--at all. I'd work with her in the backyard or in the house. Everytime you "don't give in to her" and everytime you "push her just a bit more" you're also losing out on your ability to really observe her and see where she is and what is going on.

The walks have become, then, something of an issue since they are all about going to or from someplace.
 
ETA--I really think the number one thing for you to focus on is on not letting her practice this behavior and it seems to me that by discontinuing the walks until you know what can be differently would be the best thing for now. It's just becoming worrisome to you and her, in my opinion. You worry because it seems like it's worsening and she's worried because, well, she is!
 
Also, have you had her vision checked? I know it sounds weird but I'm serious!

This reply might be all over the place, I apologize!
 

I also peeked back at the beginning of your thread. What makes you sure she's reactive and not aggressive?

 
Hmm, I don't know. I remember reading something a long time ago that tipped me off that she's not aggressive, but reactive -- but, can you tell me exactly what the difference is? I just figured that since it seems that there are certain things that bug her, it indicates reactivity, because it's not that she's aggressive all the time, or that she doesn't like a certain kind of people. It's certain sounds and such (within the house at least) that occur and we know she's going to react. Outside it's odd sounds, or strollers (or anything else with wheels...), or crying babies that bug her. I figured if she were aggressive (but again I stress that I'm not really sure of the definition of an aggressive dog) she would also be bothered by children and strange people, but she looooooooves children, and also, confident adults (I usually shy away from letting strangers close by, and they usually get it from my body language and a smile, but a father a couple weeks back came outside when his little girls were petting dweezil, [who, by the way, was rolling over all over the place loving the kid love!] and he just put his hand down and she loved the extra attention. It's something about the way people approach. Anything abrupt. Runners, bikers, etc. I don't know. I can't pinpoint everything because there have been times that calm people have been barked at as they approach (but again, might be in the way they are walking toward us ... most of the time I can tell if the way they are walking up is going to appear threatening).
 
Also, Ixas_girl, about the barking idea -- it does make sense, but at the same time, she just barks whenever people walk by the house ...
 

BTW ... I think you have a smart mom [] ... give her my best! Oh and has your mom ever taken her on a walk? How does she behave with your mom? Same?

 
Haha, I'll be sure to let my mom know She does walk her occasionally, when she picks my cousin up from the bus stop a few houses down. Very short walks. I'm not sure how she does with her on walks as I'm usually not home at these times, but at home, she's very calm with my mom. She actually seems to listen since my mom doesn't interact in a cuddly manner with her very often. Dweezil tends to be more aware of being scolded when it's by my mother or my sister, because they spend the least "personal" time with her, so I guess they're less friends and more parents. (My dad and I loooooooove Dweezil day and night, haha).
 
Oh and also about the verbal marker -- sometimes she actually doesn't "hear" the click but she'll here me when I say, "here" or "good." Then, she'll turn around.
 
Blah. I'm confused.
 

what I can't figure out, still, is why you walk her at all. I understand the need for exercise, but she is clearly confused and anxious out walking.  

 
I keep walking her because she does love her walks, or, at least she did before I started clicking ... which is why I'm bothered by it. Yes, she barked a ton on our walks, BUT, she darted for the door all ready for them and was soooo excited when she wasn't barking at someone. But suddenly after we began clicker training (after our week and a half of no walking), she's incredibly anxious at times... ?? She wasn't one of those dogs that didn't want to go anywhere. But the clicking has changed something. I think there was a misunderstanding there. There was no sign of real (and weird) anxiousness before, just anxiousness when we approached people or dogs. Now there seems to be more problems.
 
I almost want to stop the clicker, but I'm worried that might mess things up too.

oh and nfowler, about her vision -- I haven't; that's an interesting thought!!! We have thought on occasion though that she has some hearing problems, or at least is extra sensitive to sound. My little cousin stays some days, and Dweezil still gets a jolt out of when he thuds around on his little feet upstairs. She'll jump up and bark but realize it's him and then lie back down. Sounds just TRULY get to her. We thought she was HARD of hearing at one point ... but then decided she's just ignoring us [&:]

ONE MORE NOTE, haha
 
I was thinking. While I wouldn't have a problem with my mom's help ... she doesn't have the time to do so as she is a (very) busy working woman, mom, daughter, and wife, and she often thinks that all the thinking I do on this is taking it too far (though I think this myself sometimes, haha), so I dont want to confuse any process that I choose to stick to. I did in the beginning try to enlist my parents to help with training a bit since Dweezil would be spending time with them a LOT, but everything we thought about training was completely different ... I don't really want to go into it. In addition ... Dweezil will be leaving with me when I move out within a year or two (one can only hope, haha!) so I don't want to confuse "leadership" roles. But bottom line is ... while I have support, I'm really embarking on this training journey myself! (with dweezil of course!)
 
And ixasgirl, I'd love some advice on leadership, I forgot to mention!

Cerissa,

I'm heading out of town in the morning - back Sunday night - I'll write you then. I hope people answer your questions, in the meantime. []

For now, here are a few things I can offer you:

See if your mom would take Dweezil on a walk, and you follow and watch, so Dweezil doesn't see you. See what you observe in your mom's behavior and Dweezil's. I'm guessing that'll be interesting for you.

I wouldn't suggest dropping the clicker process, just change to verbal, if that makes you feel better about it. But keep at the click to calm process.

Do you practice "NILIF"? Does Dweezil sit calmly for affection (cuddling)? Does she "love" cuddling, or does she "tolerate" it? I love to cuddle my dog, but I learned to watch her closely to see what kinds of cuddling *she* loves. Does she make any calming signals when you cuddle?

I think you're being really observant and thoughtful. That's great! You know how it is, sometimes things get harder before they get easier [&:]. It's a lot of information. And, ups and downs are normal. Hang in there! []

I dunno, this is an off the wall idea...but have you considered taking a flashlight at night....or a battery operated lantern?

About the barking IG has some good advice.  Always check on what your dog is barking at.  If a dog barks to "alert the troops" and no one comes, then it thinks it has to handle the  "intruder"  alone.  Which leads to even more pronounced barking and trying to act scary.  I did this with Zeus and it does work.

It's your journey, of course, and you're still trying to figure it out, but after having worked with trainers and behaviorists to help bring a shy dog I have out of his shell, one thing that was drilled into me over and over has been this: you should not let her get more practice at doing behaviors you don't want her doing. So, what does that mean? That means you have to better control her environment, which means more management work on your part, which isn't always easy.

I guess I don't really like experimenting with my dogs. I'll push a bit here and there, and then take note, but I generally know what I want before I want head into it, take note of what's working, and then I let the dog decide. I've managed to go way further than I have thought I'd ever go by doing this.

I would let her get excited by walks, for sure, and I'd build on that, but I wouldn't go any further than the driveway for awhile. You want her to want to go and to look to you (Watch Me) when you're out there. If you can't get that part down perfect, then walking her will always show an issue here and there. You know what I mean? After you've taught her to watch you and that walking and watching in the driveway is fun, then you want to take it further, step by step.

That is what JM has been saying (correct me if I'm wrong, JM), and that is what I'm now saying. Walking the way you're going is clearly not working for you and things have to change. Is it the clicker? Is it the route? Is the difference between you and your Mom? Who knows, really. What we do know is that it's no longer ideal and it's up to you to make it ideal again.

Leadership will come through relationship building--for now, management and creating excitement is, in my opinion, the best thing you can be focusing on.
 
ETA: I can't believe how great my shy dog can focus on me now. I can take him places I never thought we'd go when I first brought him home a year+ ago. Kids come screaming by, motorcycles scream by, we can be in a store, and when he's unsure, he looks right at me, right at my face, to see what I need him to do next. It's totally reassuring to him and to me, too! He knows that I'll never put him in a spot he can't handle. I got there by doing exactly what I've been telling you to do.

Do you practice "NILIF"? Does Dweezil sit calmly for affection (cuddling)? Does she "love" cuddling, or does she "tolerate" it? I love to cuddle my dog, but I learned to watch her closely to see what kinds of cuddling *she* loves. Does she make any calming signals when you cuddle?

 
She loooooooves to cuddle. I've noticed more signs of this since I've been home the last couple of weeks (a lot...) ... I will be napping on the couch, and she'll sit at my feet calmly and stare at me until I notice. And I'll "ignore" her for a moment, and then say, "okay" and she will come right up happily and lie down next to me and lie down right up against me and paw all cat-like at my face and make, "ahhh" sounds. We swear she's a cat sometimes. She falls asleep whenever we cuddle.
 
As for NILIF, we do practice this -- even when it comes to throwing a ball she has to sit (even for a moment) before it's thrown.
 

You want her to want to go and to look to you (Watch Me) when you're out there. If you can't get that part down perfect, then walking her will always show an issue here and there. You know what I mean? After you've taught her to watch you and that walking and watching in the driveway is fun, then you want to take it further, step by step.

 
We do have watch me down -- but, as for walks being exciting, she's probably seen this go since I've made it "work" lately. I really hadn't thought of this! thanks!
 
 

I popped in to see how things were going, and I'm really glad you are taking all this great advice to heart from the people who have been successful at improving their shy or reactive dogs' ability to focus on them for guidance.  Once you get that one simple concept of making it easy for the dog to repeatedly focus on the handler, no matter what, in ever so gradually more distracting situations, you have the ticket for success, and so does the dog.  The trick is to always make the dog successful at it, which is the reason for confirming the response in each situation before moving to the next.

Thanks Anne, for the reminder that having a fearful dog is a LOT of work. It really is. I started to think of mine as disabled when I began this journey in earnest (realizing that "leadership" training--a class I took with him--wasn't helping), and it helped me learn that there would a LOT of work involved. It can be very frustrating to move at such a slow pace, especially if you like walking (like I do). 
 
But, until I know he can handle himself in the house, in the fenced back yard, on the driveway, etc., I don't proceed. All that does is show him (and me) that I'm not keeping my end of the bargain, which is to keep him safe and continually build trust (and leadership, by default) between us.

Regarding leadership.

I'm offering comments based on posts here, and my own experience in guiding Ixa out of reactivity. If I've made incorrect assumptions, please feel free to correct me!

From the way you've described yourself, I'd say that you are being "reactive"! [] It sounds like sometimes you are surprised by her responses, aren't sure what they mean, and generally are a little nervous and unsure.

ORIGINAL: bichinpanda
I usually shy away from letting strangers close by, and they usually get it from my body language and a smile,

If stangers can sense you shying away, then Dweezil can *really, really* sense it! Dweezil may be acting aggressive in order to take charge and protect you. If you are nervous about the clicker work, her barking at your family may also be for your protection. Aggressive and reactive aren't separate. My dog is clearly "fearful" in some situations, "clearly aggressive" in others. Reactive just means that she doesn't have good enough impulse control to control her feelings of fear or aggression. Fear and aggression are closely linked.

Fear aggression is distinguished from dominant aggressive. When Dweezil barks, where are her ears, what is her tail doing? Does she lean forward over her shoulders, or backwards over her hips? Does she show a lot of teeth? What do her eyes look like? When she barks at the window, does she have the same gesture/posture as when she barks at your family and at strangers? Is it just barking or also snarling, growling or snapping?

Dweezil may respond to your mom because she is steady, she isn't reactive to Dzeezil, and the things Dweezil does. Maybe she stays steady and sets her own agenda. We tend to feel calm around leaders who are steady. TinaK made a great analogy: if there's turbulence while your in an airplane and the stewardess acts freaked out - you will freak out; but if she's calm, you won't be as worried. Have you had a chance to watch your mom walk Dweezil yet? What did you observe?

The number one most important thing that helped me with my reactive dog was to get ahold of my own nervousness, and the worry I projected. Acting firm and confident gave my dog lots of confidence in me. She relaxes and trusts me to handle stuff. Instead of avoiding people or shying away, I take charge with strangers when I walk, I call out "hello" or "your dog is pretty" or "Hello, aren't we lucky to be having such a mild spring" ... whatever, just so that when anyone's around, I'm the one that everybody else is responding to ... instead of me being the one responding to everyone else. Instead of me being shy and reactive, I draw attention to myself, and everyone is taking cues from me ... I'm in charge and setting the tone. Your dog will notice that! Does that make sense?

Other examples of ways you can demonstrate your leadership with Dweezil: when your family is upstairs, put Dweezil in a sit/stay, go up the stairs and happily shake hands/hug family, then call Dweezil to come up. This is you setting the tone! If/when Dweezil barks at people, don't apologize, or feel bad, or end up nervous! Instead, laugh and sing, "oolala! Nervous little dog!" And, confidently work with her. If you're on a walk and she's pulling to get back to the house, don't let her pull you and don't make her continue. Just stop and be calm. Look around and be happy to be where you are. Walk in little circles or sing a song. Maybe act like your curious about a tree that's ahead and get her interested, too. Set the tone!

Being steady, happy, and non-reactive with your dog and others will make Dweezil feel confident in your leadership. As JM was mentioning, this is about establishing trust. What do you think?

Your getting really good advise.  I would suggest you post this in the clicker section.  Their are so many people who can help you get started.  My dog took some time to really understand the clicker and what it meant to him.  Charging the clicker etc seems to be key and easy first step exercises before you tackle the hard to change issues are important.
 
 

Hi bichinpanda ... how's it going? []

Hi everyone!!!! I'm sorry, started a new job so I haven't been sitting around for hours upon hours at the computer. haha!
 
Anyway --
 

Fear aggression is distinguished from dominant aggressive. When Dweezil barks, where are her ears, what is her tail doing? Does she lean forward over her shoulders, or backwards over her hips? Does she show a lot of teeth? What do her eyes look like? When she barks at the window, does she have the same gesture/posture as when she barks at your family and at strangers? Is it just barking or also snarling, growling or snapping?  

 
The one thing I definitely notice when she "flips" is that the hair on her back stands straight up, right in a stripe over her spine. She seems to have bits of each thing you're describing--the opposites, i mean. Sometimes she leans forward when she's barking, sometimes she is leaning back. Sometimes she'll lean forward until the person starts to bend over and she leans back ... Some people will come into the house and she'll start jumping for hands ... some people come into the house and all she does is bark and run around (when she just wants to make noise...). Usually she does growl also, but there are never any teeth...so growling, but no snarling? But there are snarling NOISES ... but really, just noises and fur standing on end...but she does lunge at some people. Never actually bites, because she gets scared when they aren't, but there have been a couple of men that she does go for hands, for some reason. No worries though...if the person doesn't know her (or, vice versa, i guess?) she isn't allowed to run at them or anything ... That person that really had no problems with dogs (and said she could bite him if she wanted to...remember?) was one of the people that she did that to.
 
About the window barking...she still does it, but it's much easier to stop her. Sometimes a simple, "dweezil" will stop her because she'll turn to look at me and snap out of it. Sometimes if I come look then shrug (like you guys told me to) she just follows me away from the window. Times when she's really upset at the window (bikers and such), I will tap her on the back lightly and she'll snap out of it, but she won't "hear" me really.
 
I wish i could give a longer update. I went against some advice and have been walking her regularly each morning, at the same time. We see the same people. One person always watering the lawn, one person jogging, one walking, and occasional people sightings. The only time she really gets out of hand each day, is when we pass a house with a really really barky border collie...the dog scratches at the window and barks whenever we walk by, and even if the dog isn't there now, since Dweezil knows where he lives, she starts barking and her fur stands up and for about a minute after that she'll bark at anything that walks by. But otherwise, she sees a person, but I can call her name and she will sit and look at me.
 
I'm sorry to the people who told me not to walk her, but, I did stop walking her at night and now that I have a consistant schedule, hers is as well. And, she seems to be responding well. I also stopped using the clicker, but instead a "here" or "dweezil" on our walks, and this seems to work a lot better. I think the clicker bothered her for some reason. I still use it with visitors though, in the house, she responds better to the clicker in these situations (and is getting much better).
 
Will update again this weekend.
 
Thanks again everyone, for checking in, and for all your thoughtful advice and questions! []

Sometimes she'll lean forward until the person starts to bend over and she leans back ...

That's a fear response, plain and simple.


Don't worry about not following anyone's advice - we don't have to live with your dog - you do. []