Controlling the resources

I live within walking distance of our zoo, (it is world class, it's really great) and you guys are making me want to go hang out with the wild dogs they recently brought in for a captive breeding program. If it wasn't like a million degrees out there today, I probably would!

If a lowly baby rabbit can come into my household and work out within 5 minutes where the rabbits live and that sadly the closest thing there is to a rabbit is a wild hare and I guess that'll have to do because the rest of the house is filled with predators and those dull-witted, giant slaves what cater to a rabbit's every whim, then I think a dog can probably work out that humans are not dogs. Bunnies are socially intelligent, but they've still got nothing on a domestic dog's powers of reasoning. Trust me, when you've seen the flat look on a rabbit's face when it realises the closest thing to a rabbit in this new home is a hare and figures it had better let the hare know it would have preferred it to be a rabbit, you know the rabbit knows the hare is an almost-rabbit. That's right, you heard me![]

I still maintain that this is not an appropriate time to lump wild and domestic dogs together. It's a whole different ball-game, so the argument is moot.

Incidentally, that dog I mentioned in my last post that liked my company but still went home for dinner every night? Well, eventually her family stopped feeding her and someone else started feeding her. She lived out the last of her days with the one offering food. Her family offered her nothing but food for most of her life, but she'd still go home to them every night and she'd die to please them, right up until they stopped feeding her.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I live within walking distance of our zoo, (it is world class, it's really great) and you guys are making me want to go hang out with the wild dogs they recently brought in for a captive breeding program. If it wasn't like a million degrees out there today, I probably would!

 
If you'd like to see non-wild dogs that act in a very similar fashion to AWDogs, find a PH breeder with a large "pack."  It's super interesting to watch as well.  The heirarchies and alliances-the alphas, betas and omegas. 
 
 

I love Sham85's post.  I agree with it on many levels.  In particular I love the way that it is stressed that leaders don't get into confrontations!  They are above such antics.  They do what they like, with a supremely indifferent air.  Such animals are the sort that others group round and instinctively follow and defer to.  Such animals do not have to "prove themselves leader" - it's just what they ARE, and the rest of the group knows it and follows WILLINGLY.  Leaders do not claim items that are unimportant to them for the sake of it, nor do they correct or get into confrontations with their fellow pack members - only "alpha wannabes" do that.  True "leaders" just get on with it and expect others to do the same. 
 
I control some resources around my house.... but in truth I don't claim the dogs beds (crates, an important resource which they love - their own "den")  nor do I control their water (without which they would quickly die) nor do I really control the food.... above expecting polite behaviour before I set their meals down and making them work for treats.  They have several chews and toys which they can gnaw on or play with whenever they feel like it, I keep one or two exciting ones to help motivate them during training.  That's about it really.  I do monopolise the doorways - nearly got my neck broke twice in a doorway scuffle, so I soon put paid to that.  As mudpuppy said, though, that's as much, if not more, about harmonious co-habiting and, well, manners... not dominance.
 
In any case, I don't really give a fig.  So I control some of the important resources.  If it makes the dogs behave because it convinces them I am "leader", then grand.  If it makes them behave because of goold old fashioned operant conditioning.... well thats great too.  Who gives a monkeys as long as they are happy and socially viable????????  I don't see what the great debate is for TBH.

do you think your dog would follow you even when you are not in charge of "opening the fridge" anymore?

The fact is that food is not the only resource dogs care about.  If you control access to the outdoors, to toys, to going for a ride, to things the dog likes to sniff, to the wading pool, to his favorite doggie friend, to his kibble, to his rawhide, to sleeping areas, to the couch, to the beach, to anything the dog wants, then you are certainly going to remain a leader in his eyes.  It's really not about bribes, refrigerators, or even food.  It's about asking the dog to defer to you before he gets something from you.  So, if he wants to go out, you control that resource by asking him to sit, then perhaps to wait (even if the door is open), then releasing him from the "wait" to go outside.

Redundant post

I think that built into all animals that live socially is the idea that group = better life.  More food, more protection.  Social animals live in groups because it is advantageous to do so. 

The leader in any group may not be the one bringing home all the bacon, but he or she usually gets to claim the best bacon.  *That* is control of resources.  Resource control is not about doling out every morsel, but about having the right to the resources you want.  Food, sleeping areas - whatever the resource is. 

Dogs need food, and they need to feel protected by a "group."  We can artificially separate those two things (like the owners who feed, but the neighbors who give attention and a feeling of belonging), but IMO it is an artificial distinction. 

When cats want to fight, even in play, they turn to the side and arch their back, trying to look big. For a dog, side presentation is a calming signal, meaning I'm cool with you. So, it's hilarious to watch Jade present her side and arch her back and try to move back and forth and Shadow just looks at her, yawns, and lays down. A slight miscommunication there.
 

And while Kit the hare is very good at reading my body language, he seems disturbingly ignorant of what a snarl means from Penny. [] For some reason bared teeth and growls mean nothing to him, even when they're followed by a noisy air snap in his direction. He does know a playful dog from a predatory dog, though, and he's also completely unbothered by a kitten sitting on his cage and repeatedly smacking his head with her paws through the bars. Animals, if brought up with other animals, can learn a lot of the body language of that other animal. However, they are limited in what they can learn. Sadly, and much to Bonnie's irritation and disgust, Kit still doesn't know the first thing about rabbit language, despite being so closely related. Isn't that interesting? What's more interesting, now that I think about it, is that Kit has been very motivated to learn my body language as I'm the one that brings the food and water and inflicts things on him that he doesn't like. But he only has a passing interest in learning the body language of other animals he's lived with. He's been living with my mother as his main care giver for the last year, and he's slowly come to learn her body language as well, but he still knows me best out of everyone.

The way humans "control the resources" of dogs has no resemblance to the way alpha dogs "control the resources". An alpha dog wants it, he takes it, the submissive dogs let her take it. Humans GIVE things to dogs-- food, affection, freedom. Alpha dogs don't give things to other dogs.  When was the last time you saw a dog carry his bone to another dog and give it to him?
I think it is a big mistake to think your dog considers you to be a kind of dog, and expects or needs you to act like an alpha dog. I think most dogs consider humans to be Amazing Magical Beings. Wow! can open doors and cans and give belly rubs. Show up regularly with bags and bags of food. Can get the car to move. Know where all the fun parks are.
The way to be a leader is to be calm, consistent, and interesting. And not care whether your dog thinks you are his leader. Leaders don't go around worrying about such things; they just lead.

The way to be a leader is to be calm, consistent, and interesting.

This should be in caps and big purple letters!  Guess what?  I have the hardest time getting dog owners to be interesting (to their dogs).  They want to say "STAY!!!!!!!"  But, if you ask them to singsong their dog's name once in a while like they want him to think there's a party going on, they often can't bring themselves to do it.  Then, they wonder why they can't compete with sniffing mouse guts or a chasing a squirrel.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

When was the last time you saw a dog carry his bone to another dog and give it to him?

Never, but I've seen our top boy 'give' Jill an apple seed while he chowed down on the core! [] Jill wanted some, so he gave her a seed. She now thinks you don't eat the apple core, only the seeds. He's a smart cookie, that one.

And I had a dingo bring her bone to me and dump it on my foot and look up at me, waiting for me to gush over what an awesome bone she had for herself. Of course, if I'd misconstrued the gesture and tried to take it, she would have bitten my hand off, and she was at the bottom of the social hierarchy! Then again, dingoes can be a little wierd with sociality. Maybe she was just trying to make friends.

There's also allofeeding, which happens in a lot of animals. But that's all about courtship, so we'll leave that one alone.

My dog sure doesn't think I'm a dog. My behaviour is way too weird. But even my hare knows he's not human, and he was raised by one almost from birth. I think it's blindingly obvious to them that humans are not the same as them.

So basically my dog wouldn't even want to be with me if I didn't have anything to offer?That's kind of depressing[&:]I guess they don't really offer unconditional love. Or am I completely misunderstanding this subject?

No, they do not. Most people don't even understand unconditional love. But the things that you have to offer your dog do extend well beyond just food or toys. You give them acceptance, the safety of a group, fulfill their social needs, you give them comfort and security, structure and predictability in life. If your own family didn't give you anything, didn't fulfill any of your needs, not your need for security or for bonding or any of your physical needs, how long would you stick around them?

Why do dogs stick around and remain loyal when their owner is a homeless person who is unable to properly feed and house them? I see lots of partnerships like that in Los Angeles, skinny and bedraggled dog, living, faithfully, off-leash, with their bedraggled owner.

Why does a dog respond so faithfully to a boy with cerebral palsy, who cannot "control resources" or even most of his body? In both cases, the "leader," the one who is followed and responded to, is not providing food and caretaking.

I have no idea what unconditional love means, but there's a loyalty or trustiness that many many dogs exhibit, that we enjoy. Isn't that one reason we have pet dogs rather than pet ... bobcats?