Controlling the resources

they still have a leader, which is not the one that brings the food to them most of the time

In a pack, it is the leader's responsibility to know where the resources are.  Sometimes the streams dry up, the herds move on, or nature simply doesn't have enough to offer.  The leader is the one that takes the pack to other locations where those resources exist.

Though elephants aren't dogs, the matriarch elephant will lead her troop across vast distances to a watering hole that maybe she hasn't visited in many years.   

Something similar can be seen with wolves, they'll have different territories depending upon seasonal changes as well.  The leaders will sometimes leave the pack for a few days to scout them out and then come back and the pack will move.

what if you cant control the resources anymore?

Do you mean to ask what if one cannot open the doors, fill the water bowl, supply food etc?  Could you be a bit more specific?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


Do you mean to ask what if one cannot open the doors, fill the water bowl, supply food etc? Could you be a bit more specific?

Basically could you lead if your thumbs fell off?

I think this is one of those times when it's not necessarily appopriate to lump wild and domestic animals all together. Domestic animals are very different in a lot of ways to wild animals. One way that I've noticed is that domestic animals care about food a lot more than wild animals do, and wild animals are a lot choosier about the company they keep than domestic animals. Food is a secondary concern for wild animals, coming after staying out of immediate physical peril. Company is a great way to help minimise immediate physical peril. Domestic animals rarely encounter immediate physical peril, so they tend to be pretty focused on food. Sure they like company, but it doesn't have the same meaning for them as it does for wild animals.

Another way domestic and wild animals differ is their way of thinking. Domestic animals are generally not as bright as wild animals. They're not as good at problem solving and they've been dependent on humans all their lives. If water or food doesn't turn up, they'll wait until starvation or death by dehydration threatens before they attempt to do something about it. A wild animal, though, will recognise earlier that something is wrong and go out and do something about it. It's not a learnt helplessness that domestic animals have; it's a genetic one.

Would a dog still hang out with you if you didn't feed it? A wild dog probably would not unless you'd raised it yourself and had a special bond with it. Even then, that bond would most likely dissipate without food to reinforce it. A lot of animals leave their family once their parents stop helping them find food. A domestic dog... depends. It might for some of the time if it likes your company, but it wouldn't be the same relationship. My neighbours had a dog when I was a kid that they allowed to roam free. I loved her and she was always delighted to see me. Sometimes she'd accompany me on walks. She'd generally do what I asked of her because she liked being told what to do. However, when we walked together, she'd often go off on her own to check things out and would often leave my company before I got back home. My dog would never do such a thing.

For me, the only controlled resource that can be equated with leadership is my knowledge of the individual dog in fulfilling its higher level needs of pleasure and existence.   And with this knowledge I know the when and how much.  The consequence of this knowledge is the building of trust and that is core to the relationship.  That's what I think makes me the leader.  Its being smart about the dog's balance and what needs are being met.

Yesterday's alpha thread implied that controlling resources is key to alpha status or human leadership.  I tried listing the resources and there were not that many, basically falling into 2 categories, survival and access.  Dogs have instinctual needs to fulfill the lower needs and if not met will create behavior possibly to the human's dislike.  The opposite is also true where the dog will construct its behavior and do tricks to the human  liking or bidding.  They will give it their all to fulfill the need.  So giving food, water, walk, access, structure, and toys are mutual to the dog and human and expected.  And the dog knows this.  Dogs got to pee and poop and if you don't give access to the place, the dog is going to pee and poop where you don't want it to.  If you don't give food and water, the dog is going to go elsewhere and possibly break a window to get out of the house. If the human withholds a chew toy the dog will find something else to chew. 

Now lets not confuse human leadership with hard wired instinctual learning within species such as when birds fly south for the winter and there is one bird in front at the peak of the formation. 

ORIGINAL: silverserpher

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


Do you mean to ask what if one cannot open the doors, fill the water bowl, supply food etc? Could you be a bit more specific?

Basically could you lead if your thumbs fell off?

 
Yes, but I'd have a harder time opening up cans.

I'd have a pretty different relationship with the dogs if I wasn't quite so in charge of the resources. I think we'd still enjoy hanging out together just because my dogs, especially Conrad, are just good-natured and enjoy being social and I enjoy being social with them, so we meet each other's needs in that regard. But if they had to go off for a few hours every day and find their own food, they'd naturally be less focused on me  and what I can do for them.

The thing is, dogs evolved alongside humans not becuase we are so good-looking or have such magnetic personalities. Domestic dogs evolved from wild canids through the process of some wild canids realizing that human settlements contain a lot of resources and the closer you can get to the humans, the more resources you'll be able to easily get your paws on. Domestic dogs did not appear ex nihilo wanting to hang out with humans because we're so awesome. They evolved becasue we've got opposable thumbs and bigger brains so hanging out with us brings many rewards in the form of food and protection.

It's so much easier to live with dogs if you just stop thinking about packs and stop thinking that dogs somehow expect humans to act like dogs and think that dogs will only obey you if you are some mysterious "leader". These are all completely irrelevant to dog training and living with polite, well-mannered, obedient dogs.
 
I control the food-- not to somehow convince the dogs that I'm their leader, but to modify their natural behavior. I want dogs who sit quietly and wait to be fed. So they don't get food unless they do what I want first.  Nothing to do with being dominant, nothing to do with mysterious "leadership" qualities, all about having a peaceful meal time that is pleasant for everyone.
 
I don't want to get knocked down by huge dogs charging out the door en masse, so if they want to go outside they have to wait quietly until I tell them to go outside. Nothing to do with being dominant, nothing to do with mysterious "leadership" qualities, all about me not getting knocked down.
 
I don't want dogs that run off and get hit by cars, so I spend a lot of time teaching the dogs that the fun stuff always happens where I am. Who knows when roast beef will suddenly appear, or a fun game will begin. Nothing to with being dominant, nothing to do with mysterious "leadership" qualities, all about good old fashioned operant conditioning.
 
And these demands I make on the dogs can't possibly induce "learned helplessness" because the dogs are allowed to freely choose-- if they don't want to sit quietly, they can choose to do something else. They won't get any food from me, but that's their choice. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

It's so much easier to live with dogs if you just stop thinking about packs and stop thinking that dogs somehow expect humans to act like dogs and think that dogs will only obey you if you are some mysterious "leader".

 
Stop thinking about a pack is like telling a family to live like one without thinking they are a family, the family structure is what keeps them together
 
Lets say we do that, we stop thinking about packs, who is gonna tell the dogs that? who is going to tell them that you are not actually a pack? how they can realize it?
 
Dogs dont go around thinking, this is a human, this is a bird, this is a cat, etc. they just know you are a "being" on this earth and how confident are of yourself, a good example that dogs expect us to act like dogs is this:
 
When a dog sees a cat most of the time they want to get into a fight, why? because for cats having the tail up means being friendly, which is the opposite if you are a dog, who tells the dogs thats how cats behave? who tell the dogs that we act differently than them because we are humans?
 
Leaders dont control the resources, they might lead the pack to look for food but maybe another member was the one that saw the deer, or the fox or whatever, how the ack dont choose that member as the leader (because he was the one who found the pray) instead of the alpha?
 
How come the leader the leader does not need to hold any food so the members can see him as one?; they actually would rather to wait till the leader starts eating before they do, even when the food is right there in front of them
 
Why the leader is the leader if he does not control the resources?

Why the leader is the leader if he does not control the resources?

 
See my original answer to your query.  I generalized there, but if you would like specific examples as they apply to sighthounds, I'll gladly oblige.[]

When a dog sees a cat most of the time they want to get into a fight, why? because for cats having the tail up means being friendly, which is the opposite if you are a dog, who tells the dogs thats how cats behave? who tell the dogs that we act differently than them because we are humans?

.

Ha ha ha!   that's too funny. Maybe you should stick to posting links to videos.
 
 

I think dogs want to chase cats because cats look a heckuvalot like PREY. Small, furry, running quickly. Check, check and check.

When a dog sees a cat most of the time they want to get into a fight, why? because for cats having the tail up means being friendly, which is the opposite if you are a dog, who tells the dogs thats how cats behave? who tell the dogs that we act differently than them because we are humans?

ORIGINAL: espencer
 
Cats can tell dogs how they behave.  Dogs don't chase cats because their tail is up, it is because the cat runs like prey.  Typically if the cat doesn't run the dog stops.  And if a dog has had enough exposure to cats it can read the cats body language. 
 
One of the differences between dogs and wolves is that dogs are better able to learn new behavior, like understanding how cats and humans behave.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

When a dog sees a cat most of the time they want to get into a fight, why? because for cats having the tail up means being friendly, which is the opposite if you are a dog, who tells the dogs thats how cats behave? who tell the dogs that we act differently than them because we are humans?

.

Ha ha ha!   that's too funny. Maybe you should stick to posting links to videos.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I think dogs want to chase cats because cats look a heckuvalot like PREY. Small, furry, running quickly. Check, check and check.

Clearly you people need to read more about cats:

[linkhttp://www.metpet.com/Reference/Cats/Behavior/Tail_signals.htm]http://www.metpet.com/Reference/Cats/Behavior/Tail_signals.htm[/link]
[align=left]"Tail straight up.  This is a friendly cat that is coming forward to greet you.  If the tip is bent, this could mean he is a little insecure about his reception."[align=left] [align=left]Do that to a dog and the dog will take it as a sign of dominance or aggression

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Do you mean to ask what if one cannot open the doors, fill the water bowl, supply food etc? 

 
Yes, i meant that when i said "opening the fridge"
 
Leaders in the wild dont open the doors, fill the water bowl, supply food etc, then why they are leaders?