Almost have had it! What is with my dog?

my dog's allowed outside whenever she wants via her doggy door.....if my household merely waited to hear her "ask" to be let out, then they will more than lilkely "miss" her question and we'll have an accident prone dog.
 
like earlier.  coco can sleep all day and night with me (i'm an insomniac) I woke her up at 1ish to see if she needed to go outside... cant miss a loud bark in your face reply when she hears the word "outside?"
 
She goes outside, pees and poops.  I go back downstairs to the basement where my room is, slong with my den, my birds, etc.
 
I sit at the desk and she keeps whining and crying.  I conclude, 1. she has to throw up...but she didnt eat yet!  (sometimes if she eats too much at once she will regurgitate her food.) 2. she just pottied!
 
regardless, when she regurgitates, she likes to "bury" her vomit anyways, and 2. she potties outside.
 
figuring my father is outside anyways. i'll just take her outside and close the doggy door so she cant follow me inside as usual.... (i didnt feel like staying outside cause i'm allergic to the sun.) i take her outside, talked to my father for like a min, and looked over...and there was coco taking another dump...
 
i guess she didnt get it all out the first time!  ha ha ha ha perfectly understandable!  we've all been there!
 
 

("Callie thinks* If a couple of these folks had kids and were trying to toilet train them and the kid at the age of 4 is now dancing around holding his crotch and the parents say "You went this morning, you can go tonight but I'm not going to encourage such an irritating behavior in my child.")
 
When you gotta go you gotta go.  Whether a dog or a person.  *I* don't go twice a day.  In fact there are laws protecting my right TO go to the bathroom when I need to.  Come on. 
 
And I think we're losing sight of the fact that this particular dog is generalizing all over the place -- the dog CAN hold it if forced but when not supervised it simply finds a place out of human sight and goes.  In that *particular* case you have to be diligent as all heck to watch them every second.  Because this dog is NOT housetrained.
 
But also - I'm gonna remind Mudpuppy and everyone else as a dog ages their physical needs change.  If a dog is SICK it's needs change.  If you are blessed with an animal that never ever has diarreha or a UTI from the moment you get it until it crosses the Bridge you are blessed.  But at some point that animal needs to communicate with you about that. 
 
I'm a bit amused actually -- this truly brings out the vast differences in training methods.  I deliberately don't treat my dogs simply as science experiments that produce behaviors -- that's not wrong, it's just MY way.  I actually expect a lot. 
 
But I've also had dogs with serious and severe health challenges.   Had Billy not been able to communicate with me that he was having tummy problems, I never ever would have caught the IMHA early enough to have saved his life.  One way isn't better or worse -- it's just individual. 
 
Irritating behavior indeed -- don't ever ask to go to the bathroom at MY house then!! *grin*
 
You don't encourage them to ask every two minutes because you ought to be taking them outside ON LEASH to the very spot you want them to go - you stand there and wait a minute and if they don't produce you go back inside.  It's not a trip out to play!!   

Irritating behavior indeed -- don't ever ask to go to the bathroom at MY house then!! *grin*

You don't encourage them to ask every two minutes because you ought to be taking them outside ON LEASH to the very spot you want them to go - you stand there and wait a minute and if they don't produce you go back inside. It's not a trip out to play!!

Thanks, Callie (and Ixas, and others). Can we please also remember that different things work for different people/dogs/households, and that as long as the dog isn't getting hurt it's not up to us to judge that our way is better than anyone else's? IMO that's irritating behavior to encourage in a forum. []

Cita, that's it exactly -- every home is different.  Everyone has different expectations and, quite honestly, different needs.  The idea is to give the OP ideas of different things to try to resolve the problem -- and as she pointed out, the problem is slightly different than just one person training the dog.. 

I think we can blend these two concepts. Par for the course at our house is the dogs don't ask to go out, they more or less have a set schedule (morning walk, after-work play time and walk, after dinner and sometimes before bed). However, how we got there with Marlowe (Conrad came to us already willing to fall over and die rather than mess in the house) was a lot of watching for his signals that he had to go and making a lot of observations of the times/situations/circumstances under which he tended to need to potty. Not in order to teach him to ask to go out, but to catch him before he went in the house, escort him outside (we usually say "Who wants to go OUT?" so they associate that word with going out to potty and you can tell by their reactions to that phrase whether they have to go or not--if they both get up from sleeping and start jumping around then yes, they want to go out) and reward and praise for going out there. The goal as I say wasn't to get him to start asking but to realize that outside is where that is done and to totally eliminate any chance for him to practice doing it inside. We actually realized that he always peed at 7PM. Every night. If he was in the house (and this is our dinner hour and as such had a very high chance of him not being closely supervised) he'd do it in the house. And it did not matter if he'd just gotten in from a walk 20 minutes beforehand. 7 o'clock was pee o'clock as far as he was concerned, so we made absolutely sure that at 7 every night, no matter what else was going on, he got out to pee. Making these time/circumstance observations and closely supervising him helped him make really enormous strides towards getting fully housetrained. He's 100% now (he arrived in 100%-Land about 8 months after we adopted him at the age of 2 having never lived inside a house before) and is on OUR schedule for pottying unless he's sick. No more pee o'clock.

I've always found that if they are sick, they understand enough to know that we're the people who make the door open and they should come and get us if they are having an emergency. Marlowe had some wicked diarrhea a couple weeks ago and we did have one middle-of-the-night accident in front of the door but the rest of the time he came very pointedly over to one of us, panting, looking uncomfy, and we immediately let him out.

I also think there's a difference in just letting a dog out than taking it out to potty.  The example I gave of my in-laws letting their dog out anytime he scratched the door is annoying to me b/c they just open the door and let him out, shut the door, and forget about him for a while.  I have no problem with a dog "asking" to go out to potty, but personally I'd prefer to take it out on a lead, or let it out and supervise, then take it back in within a few minutes whether it potties or not (just like house training) rather than simply open the door.  I think doing the latter does reinforce the dog going out whenever he pleases to do whatever he pleases.

I will try posting again, as my last attempt wasn't sucessful![&:]
 
Zoe is always taken out on a leash, and is never left un attended outside.  We do this so she stays on task.  Sometimes my son doesn't always give her enough time, and sometimes she is insistant that she either doesn't want to go potty or doesn't want/need to poop.  We will insist right back, especially if we know she hasn't pooped yet, that she poops.
 
Callie, I love all the things you said I should tell my hubby![]  If he'd only listen!  So it goes with men....
 
I think Zoe has another UTI.  She peed  upstairs in our familyroom lastnight in an area that she never has before, plus in her room as well.  This is not normal for her.  I some how need to 'catch' some urine to take to the vets to get analyised again.  Any suggestions on how to do that without totally freaking her out?
 
She had the very beginnngs of urine crystals[don't know what kind] and our vet said if the UTI persisted we may have to change her food.  She did not want me to give cranberry as Zoes ph level in her urine is at a good place.  Is SD my only option for that?
 
What does it mean when the dog as done its business out side, peed  numerous times, comes in and 10 minutes later you find pee on the area rug or floor?  I don't understand that one!
 
I see I must have a serious talk with the whole family and stess these points you all have made, once again, and pray we can get this fixed!

Different dogs "concentrate" differently -- some dogs have a very fleeting attention span (trust me -- housetraining a herding dog can be a whole different thing for this exact reason -- they notice **Everything**). 
 
However -- my bet is, she's stubborn and when you are trying to keep her 'on task' she figures "Ok -- I'll just finish INSIDE" because she wants to do what she wants to do at the moment. 
 
She is completely not 'getting it' that you *ONLY* go outside and not in.  As far as she's concerned she knows you prefer her to go outside, but as long as she doesn't do it **in front of you** inside she gets away with it.
 
I won't let a dog dictate to me how long to give it outside.  I want them to associate "going out" with elmination.  Not play.  So I take it to that 'spot' (where I may already have an assortment of towels where I have *moved* their waste) and I give them about a minute or two tops.  I have a trigger word "You better poop!" (or pee or whatever I figure they need to do now). But if it's not accomplished fast, back inside we go. 
 
But then it's MY challenge.  I watch that dog like a hawk.  Often keeping a towel tucked in my belt to literally SCOOP the dog up and race outside. 
 
Yes, this is a royal p.i.t.a. -- because until you get it thru their heads you do NOT under ****any**** circumstances want them to elminate in the house -- they're on a mission to elude you or do it while you're distracted behind your back.  
 
But you have to be so on this constantly (and this can go on for weeks -- because once you figure they "got it" and you diminish your attention back they'll go in the game!!).  See she's successfully done this for years.  It's the behavior she'll revert to in an 'emergency' (her mind's concept of "I gotta go").  Because she's never truly gotten the whole concept that this is never ever acceptable behavior.
 
See a dog so identifies with their waste -- it literally defines them (and I'm not going to get into a shouting match with anyone here -- you can believe dogs understand some basic English or not, but I'm describing MY method here and I've re-trained a ton of really dysfunctional dogs.)
 
So all it takes is some human having a hissy fit in front of them for them to decide then and there no matter what else happens they're never gonna go "in front of them" there and then.  And it seems she's smart enough that she knows if she goes in front of you OUTSIDE that's a good thing.  But Inside?? Nope -- I won't go in front of them!!  So SHE thinks it's fine as long as she eludes you. 
 
This is why *I* say when they screw up, you go put them up where they can NOT watch you clear up the mess.  Somehow it is reinforcing to them to see you handle their waste (remember -- this defines them in dog terms -- and I think it's as 'good' to them as peeing on a tree -- when you handle their waste in front of them OH GOOD -- SHE'S MINE now!!)
 
But once you get that waste outside and laid down boldly on that paper -- go back in and clean that spot incredibly well (you wont' smell a thing but they can).  *THEN* you go get her on leash and lead her to the 'scene of the crime'.
 
You don't yell.  This is training.  "Not here -- this is MOM'S" and you simply proceed at a fast pace OUTside to that paper.
 
Let her sniff it -- 'Yes - that IS yours -- I want it HERE!"
 
I have a feeling you'll have a watershed moment and you'll actually see it in her eyes when she 'gets it'.  Because it will make an impression that you are MOVING her waste.  Moving it to a specific spot.  You're standing there -- you want MORE there.
 
But just standing in one spot outside for hours -- it is *not* going to work.  You have to take advantage of the moment. 
 
Feel her butt -- right under the anus.  When they gotta poop there will be a ridge there.  I hate to sound gross but you won't ever miss that way.  If there is a 'ridge' there they gotta poop.  If there isn't then it's probably not far enough thru the intestines to trigger them to go now. 
 
+++++++++++++
 
Next point -- UTI
 
Don't try to do a caught sample.  Take her to the vet and don't let her go.  (not for a couple of hours if possible)  Call the vet ahead and warn them of this.
 
THEN ask the vet to do a **sterile** urine sample.  That's either going to be drawn as an aspirate (with a needle directly from the bladder) OR they'll put a cathether in. 
 
Then ask the vet to have a "culture and sensitivity" done on it.  Don't wait for the vet to suggest this -- just DO it.  You absolutely MUST know if there is still bacteria there (or crystals and the c & s will show that)  and not only IF, but what specific antibiotics will kick it and kick it hard.
 
In other words -- don't sabotage your own efforts by not knowing for sure.  Get it handled completely. 
 
++++++++++++++++++++
 
"crystals" -- There's another UTI thread ("Blood in urine" I think it is) where I did a long post to explain you can find several things in urine.  You can find bacteria.  You can find "crystals" (or the beginnings of them).  YOu can find a couple of other things.  But they aren't all UTIs -- they are separate problems.
 
Most common are struvite crystals.  Calcium oxylate crystals do surely exist but they aren't as common.  AND Calcium oxylate crystals tend to have a genetic component to them and tend to be in an acid-based urine.  Struvites TEND to be in an alkalyne urine.
 
Cranberry is virtually not going to change the ph much at all.  It's acid content is extremely low.  HOWEVER -- it is mostly glucose.  The way cranberry helps a uti is that it bonds with the infection cells and literally makes them too slick to stick to the urinary tract.
 
D-mannose is similar but a more powerful sugar.  It doesn't get absorbed by the body -- it just bonds to infection cells and helps wash them away instead of lettng them stick.
 
But if there is a bacterial infection get it treated.  You will have to bite the bullet and pay for the C&S and know absolutely for sure that it's gone (you may have to go back for another urinalysis after treatment just to make sure the bacteria is gone).
 
+++++++++++++++++
Getting rid of struvite crystals.  If the crystals aren't 'bad' and are just beginning to form you can often kick it with simply adding Vitamin C (ascorbic acid -- not natural C --you want a C that is going to remain 'acid' in the body).  Don't add so much it gives her diarreha -- you'll have to increase it gradually and back off when you hit 'too much'.
 
You can also acidify the diet -- and the ph of a dog's urine SHOULD be in a range and what will allow struvites to form in Dog A may not be Dog B.  Just be aware that you can treat struvites with diet (and it doesn't have to be inferior food either).
 
That's the holistic way to treat struvites.  It will often work so you don't have to do other things.  I'm keeping Billy's urine struvite free just with C. 
 
+++++++++++++++++++
Husband -- no, I'm not going to buy "men".  You've got to sit down with him and specifically truly make him "get it".  I suggested a letter simply because it works.  They don't have to feel belittled to your face, they don't have to 'react' to your face -- they can ponder what you said ... get over being 'mad' ;and THEN you deal with it.
 
He thinks you're wrong and she's just dumb -- cute but dumb.  But this IS a training issue and this IS going to lead to getting rid of her if you guys can't lick this BEFORE you move.
 
When you get an issue where your spouse just isn't "hearing you" -- you have to try something different, and you're never going to get the kids to cooperate if your husband is giving off "Mom's being silly" signals.
 
IN the 10 years David and I have been married I've done this about three times.  Each time I was absolutely deadly serious about something and he wasn't hearing me.  David's a Scot and when he "makes up his mind" Hades could freeze over and he wouldn't change his mind.  So getting 'thru' when he thinks his course is set is NOT easy.
 
I know myself and when I'm just THAT close to doing major physical harm (either to myself by beating my head against the wall or literally blowing myself into such a hissy fit that I endanger marital harmony in a big way) -- I sit down and pour it into a letter. 
 
It works.  You know me - I'm never brief but I tend to work for hours on one of these.  BUT when the two of you are in a "stonewall" situation -- he doesn't believe you, he thinks you're being silly and you KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt that he is w-r-o-n-g and the dog's gonna suffer for it-- then do what it takes to change how you talk to him and accomplish it.
 
Obviously you don't have to do MY method -- I'm just telling you what extremes I go to in order to get my point across when it's critical.  I don't over use it -- if I left him ratty notes all the time he'd never read them.  But he knows when he gets one of these I've had it big time.
 
Just my thots. 

you've made alot of really good points Callie.  Thanks.  It is much appreciated, and gives me hope that we can lick this problem.  I will try the vit C thing too. What kind do you use, and how do you administer it?
 
So, do you just leave the paper towels lying on the ground indefenitely?  I don't think my son would enjoy cleaning them up when its time to mow the lawn![8D]

Good stuff Callie! []

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs
Husband -- no, I'm not going to buy "men". You've got to sit down with him and specifically truly make him "get it". I suggested a letter simply because it works. They don't have to feel belittled to your face, they don't have to 'react' to your face -- they can ponder what you said ... get over being 'mad' ;and THEN you deal with it.

There are lots of ways to talk to people, men in particular. One of the ways that works well for me may sound cheesy ... but if you really respect men, and do this, it's amazing! Stuff gets done and everyone's happy! Here's a tip from that odd book, "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus." LOL. It's true! Here's the form of a suggested letter that you can write. Again, it sounds cheesy, but it really helps! The point is to ask for help, rather than criticize or be bossy. For me, this has made a huge difference. It offers men the chance to be noble, rather than feel compelled to do stuff so they'll stay out of trouble.

The "Love letter": I'm sad + I'm afraid + I'm sorry + I want + I love + PS needs and wants.

For example:

"Dear Husband,

I'm sad to think that we could lose our dog, she means so much to me. I'm afraid that I can't fix her problem all by myself. I'm afraid I won't be able to get the help I need from you and the kids to fix this. I'm sorry that you feel so frustrated by her messing. I want our family to come together to work on this. I love your bond with her, and the comfort you get from cuddling with her.

Love,
Dear Wife

PS. I want to do what I can to help you and the kids get behind a new way of working with our dog. Would you tell me how I can help you do that? I really need for this to work, I'm committed to working this out."

... something along those lines. []


ETA ... PS, Cita, thanks for expressing an interest in less judgmental postings. [sm=wink2.gif]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I still don't see why one must be "diligent" in watching the dog for signals she needs to go out. Take the dog out on a fixed schedule and teach her to hold it in between.  If you let your dog ask to go out whenever she feels the need she'll never learn to control her body, she'll never be reliable when you aren't home, and when you're busy or hubby isn't paying attention, you'll have accidents. That is not a truly housebroken dog.

Our dogs aren't allowed to decide when they get to go out. What an irritating behavior to encourage in a dog.

I hope you don't think that I encourage that by suggesting supervision.  The supervision is designed to insure that when the dog attempts to urinate inside, that the human interrupts that gently, and takes the dog to the correct spot.  If the dog is never allowed to urinate inside, eventually they understand that the toilet is outdoors and most will wait to be taken there.  I must say, though, that I certainly would not tell a child to cross his legs until I felt like opening the bathroom door, and I expect that, at least occasionally, one of my dogs (who all clearly realize when they have to go) will alert me that I have waited just a tad too long.  I much prefer that to any surprises caused by my forgetfulness. []  I do, however, appreciate that most times they just wait for mom to open the door, and are not constantly pestering me to let them out, which can become a game of sorts for some dogs. []

As to the necessity for having to skirt issues with men, and coddle their egos, I was done with that in the 1960's.  [:'(]  Men are perfectly capable of hearing what a woman needs to tell them, so long as she is direct and polite when saying it.  Sometimes, either we don't give them enough credit, or we simply picked the wrong one (hopefully, as with dogs, we can retrain...) [sm=rofl.gif]

No, I don't leave the towels out indefinitely -- after she's smelled them and you've added a couple of more I clear away the first ones.  You really won't have to do this forever -- but after a few days of you a) really controlling her behavior and not *letting* her screw up and b) any messes she does have you MOVE -- she will honestly begin to get it.
 
The reason this has worked so well for me in re-training difficult dogs is because in my opinion this truly is NOT a case of the dog not being able to hold it ... it's a matter that she thinks she doesn't HAVE to if she can ditch the humans long enough.  She does not 'get' that waste belongs ***ONLY*** outside.
 
But because she's developed the mentality that if you ditch the humans you can go anywhere, any time -- it will require vigilance for a long long long time. 
 
Honestly, this isn't like training a new puppy to 'hold it'.  Re-training IS different.
 
And Ixas girl's comments are right on target -- you do what will work with THIS spouse. 

I do not play doggie doorman either.  However, if someone has to go, they've gotta go.
 
Sheba and Tyler sleep upstairs.  The other boys sleep downstairs in their crates with the doors not closed.  Their choice, not mine.  I'd be fine with having all of them sleep upstairs.  I have ONE time had one of the boys come upstairs to go outside before breakfast, and in that case, he had a serious case of the runs.  He came upstairs, sought me out in the office and asked to go outside nicely.  Far better than diaherra to clean up out of carpets.
 
A couple minutes ago, Sheba came into the office for some love and then walked to the door of the office.  This was my cue that she and Tyler wanted to go outside.  Tyler won't come and ask, he'll wait by the door and send Sheba.  Honestly, when I'm on the puter in the mornings I have to be sure that I watch the time or I'll read right through time to get ready for work.  So I'm fine with her coming and telling me she's gotta go.  This also serves as a time reminder for me.  The same can happen when everyone is hanging out....no biggie.  But my crew don't abuse it.  Perhaps because they can play out for as long as they want in their fenced yard, they just don't abuse "needing" to go outside.

Willow gives two entirely different sets of cues.  If it's an emergency there is a lot of pawing and growling and gesturing toward the door.  But, there are times when she just wants to go out for whatever reason and those cues are things like standing next to me staring, wagging when I look at her and generally acting cute.    But, I think it's pretty clear when she needs to go out and just wants to go out.   I think eventually it will be clear with any dog. 

Sheba's morning routine is to come in for some love and then lay down beside me.  If she goes and stands by the office door, then I know that she or Tyler needs to go out.  I sure don't take it as an irritating habit.