The Other Side of "Extremist" Dog Training

quote:

certainly you can teach a trash raider to stop...period.

Oh please share your techniques. I have been trying to stop this for two years!!!

 
 
Fill an empty soda can with some pennies, tape it shut, hide and wait for the perfect moment when the dog starts raiding the trash can, throw the can, but make sure the dog doesn't see you.............voila..........it works......

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

And, sometimes I've gotten the distinct impression that they go on about being "positive" but aren't capable of working with really tough dogs.  Those they want to put down because the methods they want to use don't work on those dogs.   But, they will try to give the impression that putting a choke collar on the same dog is really detrimental to the dog. More than being put to sleep??  And, they want to move on to the "easier" dogs that they can use their preferred methods with. 

This sentiment and the string of posts following it doesn't jibe with my experience.

I worked closely with a trainer and behaviorist that specialized in aggressive behavior, and both of them advocated a no adversives approach with my aggressive dog.

And I have to say that I had a *lot* of partial successes with that dog, who was unfortunately one of those rare, truly dangerous dogs. If my dog was a garden-variety aggressive dog, I can definitely say that I could have "fixed" her using positive reinforcement. I can also say that I came to this dog with a lot of experience training dogs using "traditional" methods. When my dog began aggressing, I corrected the behavior, and corrections really made the aggression much worse, very quickly.

 
Perhaps this dog was beyond the understanding and skill level and/or belief systems of both you and the professional you hired to help you. Maybe someone else could have helped you help this dog...what happened to the dog?

ORIGINAL: Angelique


Perhaps this dog was beyond the understanding and skill level and/or belief systems of both you and the professional you hired to help you. Maybe someone else could have helped you help this dog...what happened to the dog?

My thoughts exactly.[]

What's the difference between garden variety aggressive and truly aggressive?  My dog, Willow, is a garden variety truly aggressive dog.

And I don't see why just managing the garbage is "extremist."

I mean, I understand the rhetoric. We are, in this culture, accustomed to truth being relative, and prefer "fair and balanced" to "correct and incorrect," or "better and worse." So it makes sense, I guess, to label dog training in an ideological way. That way truth can remain relative--nobody's right or wrong. Instead, anyone who moves too far to any one side is an ideological "extremist".

But I want to throw out there that I didn't learn anything particularly ideological in a clicker training class.

The positive reinforcement training I learned is basically the same as any other kind of good leadership. It sounded exactly the same as the management seminars I used to attend when I worked in a call center, and it also sounded just like teacher training.

And it seems to work really well--much better than the techniques I was using before. I made leaps that I thought would be impossible with a very scary dog using clicker training. And it has made working with my puppy much more fun, much less effortful.

I realize that we have all kind of lost our language for saying "This works better." We have to clarify that kind of statement by saying that "It works better for me." or "I believe in this." And I see that saying the words "This works better" opens a person in this culture up to being called an ideologue.

But it really does. It just works better. I have been training dogs for a really long time now, and there is no ideological weight behind what I am saying. It simply works better than what I learned from the Monks of New Skete and Brian Kilcommons and Barbara Woodhouse, who I still completely respect and take lessons from.

What's the difference between garden variety aggressive and truly aggressive?  My dog, Willow, is a garden variety truly aggressive dog.

Sorry if I was being vague. I meant the difference between a dog you can manage and a dog you cannot manage. You manage Willow. Laika was not managable. She was a large moral and legal liability. I assume that you do not consider Willow to be a large moral and legal liability, and I wouldn't consider most "aggressive dogs" in these terms. There are a lot of dogs that would bite someone. Laika would have easily mauled or killed a child. That's how I was carving it up in my mind.

Angelique, to answer your question, I put her down, and while it was the worst thing I have ever had to do, I don't regret the decision one bit. I actually learned a lot and worked in a few different ways with that dog. And I am confident that I got her as far as she could go.

I can also tell you in no uncertain terms that the only kind of training she responded to was an approach that included no aversives. I worked with a really great trainer and behaviorist that I trust and respect, not for ideological reasons but because they gave me amazing, if partial, results.

assume that you do not consider Willow to be a large moral and legal liability,

Hmmm. . .yes, to a large degree she is a BIG legal liability, especially with other dogs and kids.  She's very good with adults.  If we make a mistake in the wrong situation we could be in trouble.  Example--My husband was just getting home the other day and Willow was at the door to greet him--just sticking her nose out the door, not actually in the hallway.  Well, the guy across the hall opened his door and let his chihuahua into the hall.  Well, Willow barged past DH and went after to dog, chasing the dog back into and around his own apartment.  Luckily, the dog was so small that he could get into such small hiding places that Willow would never fit into.  But, had she caught him, she would of definately caused serious injury if not killed him. 

I can't be with her 24/7 so there is always a worry in the back of my mind that something will happen when I can't completely control the situation, as in DH is caring for her. 

I guess basically, the situations that she's bad with, she's very, very bad with.  But, then in others she's OK, like with adults, grooming, etc.  When she's acting on her instincts she's not my Willow.  She's an animal, a dog. 


As for moral liability, I usually don't think that way.  But, sometimes have felt that way.  For example, I took her on a hike and she was pretty good but did act out lunging at another dog at one point.  I thought to myself, these people must think I'm crazy.  And, what if she got loose from me and something happened.  Why am I here with her??  That kind of thought process does happen for me.  I try to keep her as far away from people as possible.  I'll walk off the path or across the street, out of my way to avoid.   It's hard trying to maintain some sense of a normal life and go thru the mental games with myself, avoiding, etc.

Anyway, I hate to bring up these feelings about Laika for you because I know regardless of your thoughts vs mine or whatever, it was horrible for you.  And, I still miss Laika stories.  We all miss her--those that "knew" her.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Put the rubbish bin in a cupboard. []

 
I do keep the rubbish in the closet, I have tried eveything suggested.  I was asking  AD to share one of his ideas?

I do keep the rubbish in the closet, I have tried eveything suggested. I was asking AD to share one of his ideas?

 
 
Wow, the empty can with pennies didn't work?

ORIGINAL: snownose

I do keep the rubbish in the closet, I have tried eveything suggested. I was asking AD to share one of his ideas?

Wow, the empty can with pennies didn't work?

 
It doesn't work with PHs either.  They KNOW that the pennies are connected to the person. 

Well, the can worked for my dogs.
I have one other option that I used with my cat, said cat was always sitting around the pond waiting to pounce on my frogs. I filled my Morrone turkey baster/injector with water( water pistol will do), and I would sneak out onto the deck......once he was fixated I sprayed him with water, he never knew where it was coming from........that did the trick.....no more kitty trying to scope out the pond.[]