The Other Side of "Extremist" Dog Training

JM  and WILLOW

I love it![sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

What I am starting to get out of these threads (and they all seem to be running together and in the same direction) is freaking me out a bit.  And no one is explaining it to me.

In the positive reinforcement camp (of which I belong) behavior is just behavior.

Except for SOME behavior.  And for this SOME behavior, we just destroy the dog and move on. All of a sudden, everything we know and use, no longer applies????

Agression is a behavior, but one that cannot be put on extinction and another behavior put in it's place????   This is not logical.  The whole house of cards will fall.

JM, just keep doing this [sm=banghead002.gif] it makes me feel better.[]

ORIGINAL: JM

What I am starting to get out of these threads (and they all seem to be running together and in the same direction) is freaking me out a bit.  And no one is explaining it to me.

In the positive reinforcement camp (of which I belong) behavior is just behavior.

Except for SOME behavior.  And for this SOME behavior, we just destroy the dog and move on. All of a sudden, everything we know and use, no longer applies????

Agression is a behavior, but one that cannot be put on extinction and another behavior put in it's place????   This is not logical.  The whole house of cards will fall.

 
I can only give you my perspective. [8D]
 
I view a behavior as a result of "something". I always look for that "something" which is the cause, first.
 
In dealing with a resulting behavior at it's cause, there is less need to shape the behavior after the behavior occurs. It doesn't make sense to me to shape and manipulate "symtoms", before looking for the possible cause of those symtoms.
 
I personally address the probable cause (usually it's a human related problem - somewhere along the way) first. Then use an interaction during the behavior to communicate what I want from the dog in that specific moment (social learning). Finally, I can also introduce operant conditioning to modify the behavior further. But it is the last component.
 

I'm really confused by these posts. I would never use aversives with aggressive behavior, ever. It's much more effective to use positive methods on aggression problems.
Aversives work pretty well with certain common doggy mis-behaviors like pulling on leash, raiding garbage, chasing prey animals. But not with aggression.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I'm really confused by these posts. I would never use aversives with aggressive behavior, ever. It's much more effective to use positive methods on aggression problems.
Aversives work pretty well with certain common doggy mis-behaviors like pulling on leash, raiding garbage, chasing prey animals. But not with aggression.

I worked correcting aggressive behavior (part of the work was...correcting aggressive behavior) for years. Have seen it work...for years.

ETA What kind of work with dogs do you do, and how long have you been doing it?

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I view a behavior as a result of "something". I always look for that "something" which is the cause, first.

In dealing with a resulting behavior at it's cause, there is less need to shape the behavior after the behavior occurs. It doesn't make sense to me to shape and manipulate "symtoms", before looking for the possible cause of those symtoms.

Ah, yes ... psychology! I've heard of that []

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I can only give you my perspective. [8D]

I view a behavior as a result of "something". I always look for that "something" which is the cause, first.

In dealing with a resulting behavior at it's cause, there is less need to shape the behavior after the behavior occurs. It doesn't make sense to me to shape and manipulate "symtoms", before looking for the possible cause of those symtoms.

I personally address the probable cause (usually it's a human related problem - somewhere along the way) first. Then use an interaction during the behavior to communicate what I want from the dog in that specific moment (social learning). Finally, I can also introduce operant conditioning to modify the behavior further. But it is the last component.

 
You make an excellent point here.  Dealing with the root of the problem.  I don't think that positive only extremists ignore the problems though.  Some might, I don't (though I'm not an extremist.)
 
Examples:  Dog is chewing inappropriate items.  Redirect dog by providing appropriate items.  If dog continues to prefer inappropriate items, the dog's environment is manipulated so that the dog cannot get to inappropriate items. 
 
The redirection usually includes a verbal "uh-uhn" and afterwards the appropriate item is provided and then a verbal reward. 
 
So I think the major concepts are the same here, but perhaps we differ in the details.

ORIGINAL: JM

What I am starting to get out of these threads (and they all seem to be running together and in the same direction) is freaking me out a bit.  And no one is explaining it to me.

In the positive reinforcement camp (of which I belong) behavior is just behavior.

Except for SOME behavior.  And for this SOME behavior, we just destroy the dog and move on. All of a sudden, everything we know and use, no longer applies????

Agression is a behavior, but one that cannot be put on extinction and another behavior put in it's place????   This is not logical.  The whole house of cards will fall.

 
I think you're referring to aggression and that IS a sticky wicket.  Everyone and everything is aggressive sometimes, in some situations.  It's not something you can just wipe out of an individual - the capacity for aggression. It is impossible.  Given the right triggers, there is always the chance it will manifest again.
 
I can understand why a lot of positive trainers are against using punitive methods to rehab aggressive dogs... they believe it will exacerbate the problem rather than deal with it.  Or that it will appear to work but in truth will only repress the unwanted behaviour (because it cannot be "cured") and that an apparently safe animal will really be a ticking time bomb..... I can understand these sentiments but until I've had more experience and learned more, for me, the jury is still out.
 
Also if something has worked in the past, there is always the chance it may be tried again in the future.  Dogs are not just stimulus-response robots and therefore no training method or behaviour modification programme is 100% guaranteed and infallible.  You always have the chance that a dog who has been trained not to raid the rubbish will one day try it again.  If it happens, it's just a nuisance.  The difference with aggression is that often when it manifests itself it is more than just a nuisance; it is really quite dangerous. 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
  Dogs are not just stimulus-response robots and therefore no training method or behaviour modification programme is 100% guaranteed and infallible.  

Now there's ***one *** thing we can agree on. NOTHING is 100% guaranted in life period. That doesn't negate the fact that *unreasonable* aggression can be changed, and certainly you can teach a trash raider to stop...period.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
Dogs are not just stimulus-response robots and therefore no training method or behaviour modification programme is 100% guaranteed and infallible.  

Now there's ***one *** thing we can agree on. NOTHING is 100% guaranted in life period. That doesn't negate the fact that *unreasonable* aggression can be changed, and certainly you can teach a trash raider to stop...period.


ETA. If we were to live by the nothing is 100% guaranteed in life, and the fact that any dog can bite. Then no one should own dogs, drive cars, or sadly enough...go to school as to not get shot.

certainly you can teach a trash raider to stop...period.

 
 
Oh please share your techniques.  I have been trying to stop this for two years!!!

Put the rubbish bin in a cupboard. []
 
 

And, sometimes I've gotten the distinct impression that they go on about being "positive" but aren't capable of working with really tough dogs.  Those they want to put down because the methods they want to use don't work on those dogs.   But, they will try to give the impression that putting a choke collar on the same dog is really detrimental to the dog. More than being put to sleep??  And, they want to move on to the "easier" dogs that they can use their preferred methods with. 

This sentiment and the string of posts following it doesn't jibe with my experience.

I worked closely with a trainer and behaviorist that specialized in aggressive behavior, and both of them advocated a no adversives approach with my aggressive dog.

And I have to say that I had a *lot* of partial successes with that dog, who was unfortunately one of those rare, truly dangerous dogs. If my dog was a garden-variety aggressive dog, I can definitely say that I could have "fixed" her using positive reinforcement. I can also say that I came to this dog with a lot of experience training dogs using "traditional" methods. When my dog began aggressing, I corrected the behavior, and corrections really made the aggression much worse, very quickly.

Oh, and yeah. My own recipe for garbage snacking is very similar to Chuffy's. I put all garbage very far away.