Should they all be saved?

ORIGINAL: DPU

Whoops, I wasn't quick enough to the draw in editing my post.  So….

As I read your public acclamation I see no difference between the message and BSL.  PTS the human aggressive dog.  PTS the aggressive dog.  PTS the breed.   TS the black ones.  PTS the ones weighing over 30lbs.  Thats where it leads and the charge is led by those that say no to the 1st question.  Even on this forum there is no clear definition of aggression and we are all supposed to be dog savvy.  There have been 8 types mentioned ranging from mild to severe.  Can the average person make a distinction?  I know for me that no matter what type of aggression, there is fear in me that results in adrenalin that results in firmness which gives leadership control over the dog, and therefore control of the situation. I can't stress enough the dangers of armchair judgment calls.  Express your opinion but let it be an informed one with an element of actual experience included.  Otherwise you do harm to the dog.

You state "If Sally began to aggressively attack people, as hard as it would be, I would have her put to sleep”.  God forbid that to happen, but if you are faced with the situation I would hope you pause and consider what else can be done to Save this dog's life.  I would not like to think that your first action would be to follow what the public tells you to do.

Added:  Question to SillySally.  I saw your post and the 1st line said some like "Why, because my opinion differs from you".  Can you confirm you edited your post?  I ask because when a post was edited, a note appears at the bottom saying it was edited and in your case, there is none.

Um, what?

There is a HUGE difference between putting to sleep a dog that has an unstable temperment resulting in attacks on humans and putting to sleep a dog of a certain color, size, or breed.  Many bully breed people (and I am one of them) believe that if a bully breed is human aggressive, and there is no physical problem, that that particular individual needs to be put down.  DH and I have had this opinion about human aggression for a long time.  I was biten by a GSD as a child and got 21 stitches as a result.  I love dogs, but it took a long time for me to feel anywhere near comfortable near shepards.  It effected my mother to the point that she is very afraid of any dog larger then a dachshund and it took a long time for her to get used to my dogs. 

I could not live with the fact that I allowed an animal that I am responsible for to knowingly be in a situation where someone (especially a child) is hurt.  I believe that as an owner of a particularly embattled breed I not only have a responsibilty to my dog, but to all other pits bulls and their owners who may be VERY negatively effected by my dog's actions.  That having been said, maybe I would try to see a behaviorist, I don't know.  However, my first instinct is that I'd probably opt for euthinasia.  Let's also not forget that of the few homeowner's insurance policies that allow pit bulls most have a "one bite and your out" rule.  After that, who is going to insure someone with a pit bull (or heck, any dog) with a bite record?  If I'm homeless (which I will be without homeowners insurance) what will happen to the 2 cats, 1 other dog, and 2 lizards that share our home?  Should they end up living in a car or shelter (I can't see anyone in my family taking us in with all our animals) because of one dog who may or may not be able to be rehabbed but IMHO will never be able to be trusted again?  You would be wise to take your own advise about armchair judgement calls.

Yes, I did edit my post, even though the computer didn't say it.

Please read my previous post, no armchair advise here, all based on my experience.  It is post such as yours that add to the fear of certain characteristics in dogs.  Such post create unfounded truism.  It is these types of posts that ut fear in my mind when confronted with an abandoned Pittie mix in my backyard.  Totally unfounded fear.

Again, have you been presented with the situation that calls for such a call?  What information do you rely on or are going to rely on.  Gossip?

Your message does harm to the dog.

Wow...all this talk of what dogs...should be killed. I tell you what...I'll give you the tools it takes to kill a dog, and you knock your self out. Funny how some of the the people screaming what a bad guy I am...are the same ones deciding which dogs should...DIE. #1. Normal dogs that have good owners, who's owners fulfill their dogs needs don't just...flip out one day. #2 Just because YOU couldn't rehab a dog doesn't mean someone else couldn't. Just ask Willow how much bad advise she got about her dog. And had she listen to some of you...her dog would be DEAD...today. And I'm not talking training theories...I'm talking your stand on which dogs should be...killed. But I'm the "macho, punishing, evil, trainer.[sm=evilfire.gif] I guess it's just me...but...[sm=banghead002.gif] ok.

Well, if it makes you feel better, I would have my lab PTS if there was nothing physically wrong with him and he started ripping people's faces off.  In fact, one of the reason I got a lab from a good breeder was to avoid situations such as this as a HUGE number of labs in our area are badly bred and have temperment issues and I spefically wanted a lab.

I find it to be a HUGE assumption on your part (and you know what assuming makes you) that I would put my dog's life in the hands of gossip.  This is a direct quote from Diane Jessup's (very well known bully breed advocate) website in regards to human aggressive dogs and the behavior or responsible owners: "They do NOT tolerate unsound behavior in the breed. If their dog is unsound, and shows unwarranted human aggression, they euthanize the dog. They do not make excuses for their dog."

Here is a link to her site in case you are interested: http://www.workingpitbull.com/  If every dog owner followed Jessup's advice, IMHO there would not be the media hype that there is surrounding a great amny breeds today.

Working in a shelter, I see things on a daily basis that I wish didn't exist. Some dogs that I think should be put up for adoption are euthanized and others that I think should be euthanized are put up for adoption. Yes, there are some dogs that I feel very strongly should be euthanized as they are obviously un-happy with something in their life, mentally or physically. The severely undersocialized Aussie who, upon seeing someone walk by his kennel, would charge up to the gate growling and barking, then run to the back of his kennel while snapping in the air, pee all over himself, and then cower in the corner. He was a bite case waiting to happen, nearly impossible to socialize because he was too terrified of people, and severely un-happy with life. The most humane thing for him (and other dogs like him), IMO, is euthanasia (however, he was not euthanized).

Some of these dogs can be rehabbed and some flat out do not want to be. For the severely animal-aggressive, child-aggressive, stranger-fearful dog with bite history, how do you adopt that dog out to someone? Tell them that they can adopt the dog if they can guarantee that the dog will not have to exposed to other animals, children, strangers, etc. at any point in time? No one can make such a promise and that is simply no way to live for person or dog. What happens if that dog gets loose and kills the neighbor's spaniel? (And this is coming from someone who has a dog-aggressive dog) As someone else stated, how many adopters are going to go through a 12 step, 16 week process of de-sensitization for mildly aggressive dogs and still realize that they can't ever push the dog past his/her limits? I know that my malinois will never be safe to be off lead around other dogs, I keep her away from situations where there will be other dogs in close quarters, and I am very upfront with people in the neighborhood who want to let their dogs come up and sniff her "Please keep your dog back - my dog is not friendly with other dogs and I do not want anything to happen." And she is not even hard-core dog aggressive - she lives with two other dogs right now! - but I understand the behavior and can manage it. How many adopters are willing to manage even more severe behavior and would understand how/why Fido really cannot be around the nieces/nephews/cousins etc.

Keeping these unhappy animals alive so that we feel better about not euthanizing them is not humane - it only serves to make us feel good without considering the outcome of the dog. And yes, there is someone who has to decide which dogs will live and which ones will not...they make this decision while keeping in mind the best interest of the animal and the public alike. I am all for second chances (and even third and fourth chances in some cases) but in the reality of the world as it is today, there is no way to save them all.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

...I would have my lab PTS if there was nothing physically wrong with him and he started ripping people's faces off.

 
I am only saying when faced with the real situations as I have, you may do something different.  Again, hope you never get into the situation but if you do come back to me and tell me what you actually did.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: sillysally

...I would have my lab PTS if there was nothing physically wrong with him and he started ripping people's faces off.

I am only saying when faced with the real situations as I have, you may do something different.  Again, hope you never get into the situation but if you do come back to me and tell me what you actually did.

Your posts implied that you were saying a lot more then that to me.....

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Well, if it makes you feel better, I would have my lab PTS if there was nothing physically wrong with him and he started ripping people's faces off.  In fact, one of the reason I got a lab from a good breeder was to avoid situations such as this as a HUGE number of labs in our area are badly bred and have temperment issues and I spefically wanted a lab.

I'm sorry..."I would have my lab PTS if there was nothing physically wrong with him and he started ripping people's faces off." What dogs are doing that?

I find it to be a HUGE assumption on your part (and you know what assuming makes you)

Wow...can you imagine the shocked look on my face from how clever that *not clever at all* little shot you just took at me was? LMAO

that I would put my dog's life in the hands of gossip.  This is a direct quote from Diane Jessup's (very well known bully breed advocate) website in regards to human aggressive dogs and the behavior or responsible owners: "[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]They do NOT tolerate unsound behavior in the breed. If their dog is unsound, and shows unwarranted human aggression, they euthanize the dog. They do not make excuses for their dog."

Ok...so that's their opinion about their breed...and?

Here is a link to her site in case you are interested:  [linkhttp://www.workingpitbull.com/%C2%A0]http://www.workingpitbull.com/ [/link] If every dog owner followed Jessup's advice, IMHO there would not be the media hype that there is surrounding a great amny breeds today.

IMHO the "hype" wouldn't exist if owners fulfilled their dogs needs.

ORIGINAL: stormyknight


Some of these dogs can be rehabbed and some flat out do not want to be.

WTH! Did the dog tell you that!? Do YOU think the dog...wants to ...be killed!? I'm really becoming shocked at some of the stances being taken by some of you. I'm so glad that I rehabilitate some of these dogs by PUNISHING them by laying them on their sides. Wow!...I am evil.[][sm=evilfire.gif]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I find it to be a HUGE assumption on your part (and you know what assuming makes you)

Wow...can you imagine the shocked look on my face from how clever that *not clever at all* little shot you just took at me was? LMAO

I was not refering to you.  Please read the (in reply to DPU) message on the bottom of post #34.  You just happened to post while I was writing my post.  Don't worry, I have nothing --good, bad, or otherwise to say to you in regards to this thread.[sm=wink2.gif]

Awsomedog, SillySally was talking to me.  Like so many other posters, they are expressing their opinions without ever being involved in the situation.  The fate of any dog is a very emotional event and my position is that it is a private matter between the caretaker and the dog.  Opinions should be expressed but only when asked.  To offer a public opinion not based on experience creates false truism that results in things like BSL and other prejudgices against certain characteristics of the dog.  They do not realize that one of the options they can turn to is a person like yourself.  Thats why we keep questioning you on your experiences hoping that you will share.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I find it to be a HUGE assumption on your part (and you know what assuming makes you)

Wow...can you imagine the shocked look on my face from how clever that *not clever at all* little shot you just took at me was? LMAO

I was not refering to you.  Please read the (in reply to DPU) message on the bottom of post #34.  You just happened to post while I was writing my post.  Don't worry, I have nothing --good, bad, or otherwise to say to you in regards to this thread.[sm=wink2.gif]

Allllrighty then. For give my...assuming...it did infact...make me one then. LOL

ORIGINAL: DPU  Thats why we keep questioning you on your experiences hoping that you will share.

Ther's a chance that that may happen the way I want it too. We'll see.

Is this question just to easy. If you (not meaning anyone person) can't help a dog...but perhaps someone else can...why shouldn't they?

WTH! Did the dog tell you that!? Do YOU think the dog...wants to ...be killed!? I'm really becoming shocked at some of the stances being taken by some of you. I'm so glad that I rehabilitate some of these dogs by PUNISHING them by laying them on their sides. Wow!...I am evil.

A dog does not tell me verbally "Please kill me" because of behavior problems. Neither do animals that are too ill to go on, yet we make the humane decision to euthanize them because as humans, we are supposed to be the smarter species and be able to make the right decision in the face of difficult circumstances. And IMO, the right decision includes euthanasia for some of these animals. I do not need them to verbally tell me that they are miserable and want a painless existance on the other side of the bridge - if you cannot tell when a dog is miserable without him telling you so verbally, then you are really missing out on a lot of non-verbal language that the dog is giving you.

Is this question just to easy. If you (not meaning anyone person) can't help a dog...but perhaps someone else can...why shouldn't they?

This question opens a can of worms. How can a shelter or rescue organization knowlingly put a dog out in the public that has mauled a person or visciously killed other animals (regularly)? Nevermind who can or cannot help the dog, how do can we (using my organization as an example) justify putting that dog back out into the public and saying "Oh but the adopter promised that they would never let the dog around kids and they would get help from trainer X." If that dog gets loose at the park and mauls a child, we have absolutely failed that dog and the public by having allowed the dog back out in the public in the first place. With the millions of perfectly adoptable critters that go down every year for no reason but lack of space and lack of homes, I absolutely have no problem with euthanizing the aggressive ones, especially in hopes of saving the more adoptable ones.

Again, I will state that I am not talking about euthanizing dogs with mild aggression, object guarding, food guarding, mild dog-aggression. I am talking about the hard-core, already have a bite history, charge at you through the kennel door, despise every other living creature type of dogs. If believing that euthanizing dogs to release them from whatever it is that is haunting them because I believe it is more humane makes me evil, heartless, or cruel, then so be it - that is one judgement that I am happy to live with.