Should they all be saved?

I used to believe that every dog was capable of being saved (in terms of rehabilitating an agressive dog), but one experience comes to mind that has me questioning that.

A youngish couple (mid 20's maybe early 30's) rescued (I hate to say this because of the stereotype) a pitt bull from a major fighting ring that was broken up.  The pup was only I think 4 or 5 months old at the time, and had not seen the ring yet nor was used for bait.  However he was the result of a long line of breeding truly agressive animals together.  The dog early on displayed severe dog agreession.  The owners brought in a trainer and a behaviorist to work with this dog for several long months.  During that time the owners were limited where the dog could go, and in public he simply needed a muzzle.  The trainer who was working with them was someone I knew personally, and was specializsed in working with agressive animals.  I did not know the behavirorist, but he came recommended by the trainer...so I would safely assume their philosophies were along the same lines.

Flash forward, the dog despite effort continually got worse.  By the time the dog was 8 months old he bit the wife in the leg severly.  Naturally I don't know the whole story, but the agression despite involving two professionals continued to escalate.  The dog was put down, and I believe it was for the best...including the best decision for the dog.

I believe the dog had the poor misforutne to be bred from lines who were sought for agressive displays.  I believe the dog was better off euthanized. 

There are plenty of good dogs in shelters that make for better pets.  I ebleive even some more "difficult" cases of dogs deserve a chance, but in the end I do not think all can be saved..or even should be.

ORIGINAL: JM

Of course they all should not be saved.... 
...Yes, he does deserve a second chance...

 
A huge contradiction!  They are saved when given a second chance even if the second chance is only a pause.

DPU:  I preface this with the utmost respect for what you do for the dogs; [sm=peace.gif] we are in the same line of work, so I know your heart is in the right place.  I'm just not sure I understand your position on this.
 

A huge contradiction! 

 
"SHOULD all dogs be saved regardless of aggression issues?" was the first question. 
 
JM's first answer was, "Of course they all should not be saved.  If the dog is snapping/biting at everything that moves, then he has to be in terrible misery."
(that was along the same thoughts I had with my answer of No also.)
 
The second question in Chuffy's original post was [color=#3300ff]"Does every dog deserve a second chance?"[color=#000000]  [/color][/color]
[color=#3300ff][color=#000000]I interpreted that as a seperate question: maybe the dog was thought to be aggressive, or surrendered as aggressive, but after further evaluation, maybe it is only in certain situations or just unsafe for children, other dogs, etc.   [/color][/color]
[color=#3300ff][color=#000000][/color][/color] 
[color=#3300ff][color=#000000]Those are two different questions to me.[8|][/color][/color]
 
[color=#3300ff][color=#000000]The first question I took to mean "ALL Dogs deemed aggresseive - REGARDLESS of why or by whom or in what situation.  [/color][/color]
 
The second question I interpreted as " Does every dog deserve a re-evaluation and a second chance to co-exist with humans" - YES -  maybe in a single-dog household, maybe in a home without small children, how about in a home where he is not chained outdoors, or in a home that doesn't beat him with a belt when he doesn't "listen".  BUT if we're talking about a dog that you have been working with for 2 or 3 months and you (assuming you is someone with some background and education dealing with dog "issues") still cannot approach the dog or the dog still cannot make eye contact, etc... - then I think it is time to "let that dog go" and be in peace.[&o]
 
So my answer, like JM, was also: # 1) NO and  #2) YES [&:]
 
If that is a contradiction - then maybe that is just more evidence of what a tough call it is that we have to make on a regular basis. - especially those of us that work so closely in rescue and fostering, and see it on a more regular basis than we wish. []
 
I'm afraid I am wishy-washy on this subject.  IME - it's a case by case basis []
[color=#3300ff][color=#000000][/color][/color] 

"They are saved when given a second chance even if the second chance is only a pause."

 
What do you mean by  "even if the second chance is only a pause"?  Do you consider going from the family that got bitten to the shelter to be the dog's second chance?  Where is the pause that you refer to?   I don't follow you...[8|] 
 

But, they would be better off euthanized than being adopted by the wrong person.

 
I totally agree with this. Cherokee belonged to my sister before me, and I firmly believe that she would have done some damage to someone had I not taken her. Not because my sister is a bad person, nor because I've done so much to rehabilitate the dog, but because I've spent the last several years just keeping her out of situations that could have rovoked a bite. My sister did not do that. She was constantly forcing Cherokee into situations she couldn't handle. She STILL tries to do that. We're living together again, and she's constantly trying to bring her friends in with Cherokee right there. "Oh, it'll be fine. She's never bitten anyone!" Yeah, and WHY has she never bitten anyone?? Because I put her into another part of the house when people come over! I never give her the chance to bite. I don't need a friendly dog who can be around people more than I need a live dog. That's not true for my sister. She wanted Cherokee to be the type of dog she could take everywhere, so she was going to force it and risk bites to do that.
 
Yes, every dog deserves a second chance, but that doesn't mean every dog can have one. There just aren't enough people who are willing to commit to an aggressive/reactive dog. If there were, then yeah, every dog should be saved.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
...if I were a shelter manager, it would be heartbreaking to kill Lassie and turn Cujo loose on the public...

 
Tzumommy, thanks for the respect but I simple do two things for the dog in need, I welcome and I give time.  What I get in return from the dog far outweighs anything I do or spend.
 
In the OP 1st question, “SHOULD all dogs be saved regardless of aggression issues?”, I read it as should all dogs be saved.  The inclusion of “regardless…” means don#%92t consider.  So substitute the word aggression with breed, health, finances, overweight, underweight, color, size, day of the week, etc and the key word in the question is SAVED.  Saving can mean a lot of things from accommodating, training, rehoming, turning over to rescues, fostering, medicating, diet, exercising, and also includes PTS.  Giving the dog time is implied in Save.  Time can be given in a moment of rethinking before the action to be taken.  This is pause.  The answer to this question is yes.  If the answer is no then you deny the dog the human compassion.  The 2nd question is an automatic yes based on the 1st question.  Giving a dog a 2nd chance simply means another opportunity, a do-over to succeed.  
 
To help you further understand my thinking, I reference you to the quote I brought in from a previous post and also reference your explanation of your “no” answer.  I strongly believe that such statements should remain silent.  The opinions should be expressed when asked by someone in the situation.  To make the statement in a public manner creates truism and denies the dog the Save.  Let the people in the situation tend to the dog that sits before them without preconceived notions.  Isn#%92t this how BSL is created?
 
Oh, I do love the dog.  With each new dog that is welcomed in my home my heart grows larger and each has a positive effect on me.  To look into the dog#%92s eyes triggers wonder and wonder is both curiosity and doubt.  With my foster Newt, a Pittie mix, I truly regret my initial fears because of the truisms about his breed.   Hope this helps.
 

Any dog should be PTS period, if they have the wrong owner then we remove that dog from that owner and look for a better one, same that when a kid lives with abusive parents, humans have way more issues than dogs because of that and i dont see anybody saying "we should kill those humans because that way of living would be bad" arent those kids in terrible misery?

Dogs move on WAAAAYYY faster and better than humans, with the right rehab they could live happy since dog's dont keep looking back to those days like humans do, dogs are not like "oh i remember those days and how bad they were" no, they remember but they dont spend their lives thinking about them, past is the past for them and the past stays there, we should learn that about dogs

Dogs should have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc  number of chances, dogs dont want to have issues, they want to live well, when humans have issues they dont want to have them either but they still dont let them go, dogs DO want to let go their issues as soon as they can, and they need humans to tell them how

For humans, then you do not believe in DNR (do not resusitate)?

I think there's a very few cases where a dog's genetics or background make PTS the only reasonable choice. One example that comes to mind was of a Pit Bull puppy that was given crack at five weeks old, just frying the poor little puppy's brain.
 
On the larger scale though, the reality around here is that over half of all dogs that go to the shelter die. If you have four dogs come in as follows: 1.) Five to six year old,  mixed breed, house trained and basic obedience with no aggressive tendencies. 2) Two year old Belgian Malinois. Has a two time bite history and is fearful of people and new situations, Well trained. 3.) One year old Pitt Bull. Friendly, but showing aggression toward other dogs of her sex. Chases cats. Is not housetrained.  4.) One year old lab/aussie cross. Friendly toward other dogs, cats and people. Listens well and is housetrained,  but tugs a bit on the leash and has a tendency to jump on people.
 
Which two would you save? Also, consider the amount of time each dog would need to become rehabilitated and how many other dogs would be PTS because there was no more space. One of the realities we encounter is that we help any stray we find. But....if a dog or cat has a major illness, we put them to sleep because we simply can't afford to do anything else, both with time and money. Around here, it's good luck trying to get a rescue to help. They don't have any money either.
 
The good news is that the numbers are decreasing. Not rapidly enough, but decreasing.
 
 

I specialize in borderline dogs - dogs that have a history of snapping or mild aggressive behavior. It's a case by case thing. If I listen to the back story, many times I'll realize that the dog was simply misplaced and/or mishandled. Since with a Border Collie, a huge part of most problems is simply lack of structure and purpose in life, such dogs usually end up here for retraining as working dogs.

A dog that continues biting after being worked with here (two different trainers, me with eleven years' experience, my partner with twenty), is euthanized. Period. There's no place for such a dog, and a Border Collie with no purpose, no people, no place to fit in, is as miserable as a lone wolf.

I've had fewer than half a dozen dogs euthanized over my career and it's always difficult. But it's a similiar thing to a dog with a painful, incurable disease - the best thing to do is end it sooner rather than later, because the dog cannot understand why he's isolated and in pain.

An aggressive dog spends much of his time either isolated or under constant pressure from the "pack leader" to manage situations. This is as stressful to a dog as it would be to you - more so, since a dog can't complain to the boss, get explanations, or rationalize it to himself. It's just constant mental stress and pain.

I have a loose set of criteria that expresses the dividing line between manageable behavior and a life threatening condition. They involve level of predictability (that's tops), frequency of incidents, whether they fall under directed aggression or reactiveness, and how boredom or fearfulness interplay with the behaviors. Dogs here get second, third, fourth chances and lots of possible explanations, training, re-evaluation - during our last failure we took four months to decide the case was incorrigible after she had bitten my partner three times under completely unpredictable circumstances.

So the short answer is no, they can't all be saved.

[Deleted by Admins]

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

point blank - IMO, not every dog should be "saved", if by saved you mean managed or contained (or something) to live out the rest of their lives.  This applies to aggression, fearfulness, illness, and a host of other reasons.  There are plenty of dogs that folks are spending their ego's on trying to "save" that should be humanely euthanized and allowed to live a presumably less stressful life "over the bridge".

Very well said.

Edited by self to avoid conflict.

Too late.

Aggression, in many cases, does not just effect the dog, owner, or victim in question.  If someone is keeping a human agressive pit bull in an attempt to "rehab" it, and that dog flosses it's teeth with some neighborhood kid this has a profound effect on EVERY pit bull and their owner.

The effects ripple through communities with the help of the media, and all of the sudden I have trouble getting home owners insurance and have to carefully pick where I live and even what towns I travel through with my dog, because certain communities will pull you over and take your dog away if you drive through them with a banned breed.

All of the sudden MY dog is guilty simply because she has been born into a certain breed, regardless of her behavior.

If Sally began to aggressively attack people, as hard as it would be, I would have her put to sleep.  This is not only because of my own feelings on the keeping of truely aggressive dogs, but because of the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of other innocent pit bulls and their owners who would be adversely effected by yet another headline.  Other dogs do not deserve to be dumped at shelters by frightened owners, put to sleep by shelters that simply don't want to deal with them, and targeted by politions because of *my* desire to keep a truely aggressive dogs when there are so many in need of homes that are not aggressive.

Whoops, I wasn't quick enough to the draw in editing my post.  So….

As I read your public acclamation I see no difference between the message and BSL.  PTS the human aggressive dog.  PTS the aggressive dog.  PTS the breed.   TS the black ones.  PTS the ones weighing over 30lbs.  Thats where it leads and the charge is led by those that say no to the 1st question.  Even on this forum there is no clear definition of aggression and we are all supposed to be dog savvy.  There have been 8 types mentioned ranging from mild to severe.  Can the average person make a distinction?  I know for me that no matter what type of aggression, there is fear in me that results in adrenalin that results in firmness which gives leadership control over the dog, and therefore control of the situation. I can't stress enough the dangers of armchair judgment calls.  Express your opinion but let it be an informed one with an element of actual experience included.  Otherwise you do harm to the dog.

You state "If Sally began to aggressively attack people, as hard as it would be, I would have her put to sleep”.  God forbid that to happen, but if you are faced with the situation I would hope you pause and consider what else can be done to Save this dog's life.  I would not like to think that your first action would be to follow what the public tells you to do.

Added:  Question to SillySally.  I saw your post and the 1st line said some like "Why, because my opinion differs from you".  Can you confirm you edited your post?  I ask because when a post was edited, a note appears at the bottom saying it was edited and in your case, there is none.

ORIGINAL: Catu
Every dog SHOULD be saved. But sadly not all dogs CAN be saved.

Well said.