socializing an older dog with children

Boy can I sympathize - I often find myself in this bind, not wanting to yell at the kids and startle my dog who is already a little unsure - but also not wanting to have the dog in an uncomfortable situation where I cannot completely control his behavior and he feels threatened by a child...  You are lucky that your dog seems to respond to discomfort by trying to walk away - and I would let her do that - you definitely don't want to ever have her in a position where she feels cornered by a child and feels she needs to react aggressively in her own defense (which even the most docile dog will do if he or she does not feel that they have a choice)...
 
Do you know any kids who are mature and would be willing to help you socialize your pooch?  If you know some, I would instruct them on the best way to approach, let your dog sniff an outstreched hand, maybe let them drop or open palm give your dog a small treat to start having your dog equate people that size with good things...  The more positive experiences with children, I think, the less likely that your dog will be startled or timid if a child runs up out of nowhere... Ultimately, you would want your dog to think that kids around means she is getting great things - and therefore she loves having kids around...  Good luck!!

Thanks, Scleide. I do not know any older children. However, I will be on the lookout. I think I had better start carrying small treats with me when we go on walks to do what you described above. I have also ordered "The Cautious Canine" from amazon.com and am awaiting its arrival. I think increasing her confidence in general will help some, too.

The outstreched hand idea is pretty much a myth, a dog can smell you perfectly from the distance you would be standing anyways. Just last night our trainer was telling me how much she disagrees with that, the logic behind it being that a fearful dog can see that as agression and bite. The way to get a dog to know you is to stand a few feet away, with your back turned to him/her. This way he/she will approach you on its own terms, when and if he/she feels comfortable, putting your hand out there is forcing the situation. DO NOT give treats or any type of re-inforcement until the dog feels comfortable.

I'll tell you how our trainer helped a young mastiff in our training classes who was a little afraid of strangers, especially when they came at her quickly with arms out. Of course, no one should come at a strange dog quickly with their arms out, but sometimes it's easier to train your dog than to train people. [] Our trainer had the people in our class sometimes randomly approach the mastiff with that looming posture, immediately offering a treat. She told us not to be too intense about it or take her totally be surprise... but sort of slowly make that motion and give her treats now and then. The idea was to build a positive association with the kind of encounter that normally worried her. I think if you can find a young volunteer to do this conditioning with your dog you might be able to overcome her fears a bit. I'm basically echoing schleide's suggestion, but I think if you can find a mature child (young teenager maybe) who your dog trusts (or is at least familiar with) you can up the ante a little by having the child imitate that sudden rush and desensitize your pup to that.

I completely agree with approaching a dog sideways in order to appear non-threatening (I have read it all over the place - a head on approach is a more threatening one)...  I am not sure though that I wouldn't extend my hand after approaching (slowly and low, at the nose or chin) to allow the dog to sniff or lick before moving to pet under the chin (as opposed to immediately petting over the head)...  But, I might be wrong...  I just figured if you extend your hand, it allows the dog to make the first move.  I am sure the dog can sniff anyone out down the block! 
 
Why would you not treat a dog to increase a positive association with children?  I would not treat for panicked or fearful behaviors, but I would allow a mature child to drop treats, or, if I was very comfortable that the child was mature and the dog was calm, to place a treat in a face up, open palm for the dog...  as I see it, with a dog that simply seems unsure of whether he or she is comfortable with certain types of people, setting the dog up so that they can link those people with treats would be a good thing.  I am not a professional though - so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

If this dog was raised as a livestock guardian dog, she is more than shy - she is completely at sea without her flock/herd!  I would not worry so much about her attitude toward strangers - it's not incumbant on every dog in the world to be lovey dovey with every person in the world.  If someone wants to snuggle, just quietly explain, "She's a Katrina dog and she's still a little shook up."  That should be enough to defuse any suspicion or fear on the part of strangers.

I've trained and bred Maremma sheepdogs for eight years and my heart just breaks at the thought of what this poor girl probably has been through.  She certainly would have given her life for the safety of her flock and family, but somehow they were seperated and now everything is so different!

What she craves right now is routine and leadership.  Yes, be positive, but be firm too.  She's young, so it's possible to turn her guardian instincts to you and your home exclusively, but it will take some very clear direction.

Don't encourage antisocial behavior and definitely correct (yes, correct) any inappropriate guarding such as actively barking or posturing at strangers you have OKd.  You will have to establish a protocol whereby you indicate that the alarm is over or the situation is acceptable to you. 

In livestock guardian hierarchy, the lower ranking dogs sound the alarm, then look to the highest ranking member for a "plan of action."   The signal to "go to battle stations" will be indicated by the alpha (bitch usually) warning the flock and taking her stand there while the rest go to meet the possible danger.  Silence on her part means her greater experience or better perspective indicates a false alarm.

I highly recommend Patricia McConnell's book The Other End of the Leash.  In it she discusses how to communicate using signals similiar to what dogs learn to expect from other dogs.  You can use her techniques to set the rules at your house and teach her what you expect, so you can work as a team to do what she expects to do - guard you and yours.

If your new dog was a guardian dog, she is even more attuned to body language, and it is likely that at the moment she is being flooded with rudenesses and crossed signals beyond compare.  It would be like landing on a planet where the middle finger salute was a pleasant greeting, four letter words were used for religious purposes, smiling was a fighting gesture, and total strangers said goodbye with a no-holds-barred French kiss.  Even if she was simply a family pet, these dogs are not designed to switch context well, and all the above still applies.

Good luck!  Here's one of my "babies"

Stupid me - I missed the question about children.  Once you've established your authority (she should not pull on her leash, either, by the way), she will look to you for direction on the matter of children, also.  My oldest dog (pictured above) had never seen a child until my first was born and she was 18 months.  She is wonderful with all children, and we never had to do a thing.  DH had to chase our rambunctious young male around the pasture for trying to "play rough" with our toddlers, once, and then Tully never did it again.  []

Here's Tully -

Brookcove, Thanks for all of the information. The thing is that Sunny never guards--she only barked once when I first got her and it was at a strange noise that frightened her. She does not bark at strangers or the doorbell or knocking on the door. The only sounds she makes are her happy whines in the morning before we go on our walks or play "growls"when we are playing outside or soft grunts when she is being petted. And it is really funny b/c most of the time she will approach adults and want to be petted. Last night we saw a family and the youngest girl wanted to pet her so I had the child approach slowly and Sunny did fine--she did not seem to mind it at all. I will definitely get the book that you recommended. It makes me feel better to have things to read. As to the pulling on the leash, it is when we first start walking (we go on two long walks, a total of almost 1.5 hrs and several shorter ones a day). By the end of the walk she is not trying. She also pulls when she sees another dog. I started using a martingale collar and it is great. We are working on heel and she is learning slowly. Is there anything else you would do? I do not want to use a choke collar or a prong. Thanks for all of your help.

On the leash pulling I would simply use any variation of the "be a tree" methods.  You cannot exert force on these dogs and hope to get their attention in any way, so your instincts are right on, there!  They learn best by having what they want taken away by you.  Never pull back on the leash or use any of the devices that "make" her do what you want (even the head halter type) - you'll give her the idea that you are fighting for control, which is a very non-leaderlike position.

It's not that she'll turn on you or anything - she'll just throw her weight around and never really "get it" - what you want from her. So much depends on her viewing you as the "boss".

You won't see her guard.  Guarding doesn't mean barking at every little thing.  It is learning what is correct in the environment, and eventually learning how to fix anything that is perceived to be out of place.  "Tending" might be a better word for it, as guarding brings up images of slavering, howling junkyard dogs.

What you want to prevent is her seeing you as the sheep, which would be anywhere from bothersome to downright dangerous to you and those who enter your life.  Rather you want to cultivate a relationship as if you were the senior member of  a tending partner team.  [sm=wink2.gif]

Ok, I will start doing a "be a tree" on walks. What I was doing was having her stop and sit every time she pulled or else having her heel for a bit. I am trying to do the same "be a tree" thing when she paws for attention. In a way I don't mind b/c it is cute but I fear by giving in when she paws at me she will not see me as the leader. She is such a mixed bag b/c she is such a velcro dog whenever we go somewhere unfamiliar and she feels unsure. But, on her own turf she is deifinitely gaining confidence which is great! I just want her to view me at the leader. I read a lot about the breed before I got her and she is slowly starting to sound more like a "real" maremma! I hate to think what she went through before she came home with me. Thank you for all of your sound advice. Sunny is such a good dog and will get even better in time!

Why would you not treat a dog to increase a positive association with children?  I would not treat for panicked or fearful behaviors

If you gives treats BEFORE the dog is at ease and comfortable you would be re-inforcing the panic/fear. You want to wait until the dog is at ease with the situation THEN treat.

Now I understand what you are saying - but I don't think I agree in this type of instance.  I think you can treat to create a positive association...  For example, if my dog was afraid of people in hats, I would set us up to walk by people I know in hats.  I would at first ask those people to toss treats to the dog from a distance, and then in tiny steps as the dog was more and more comfortable, have them get closer and closer until people in hats could hand him treats.  I would be aiming to create a link in the dog's mind between people in hats and treats - so that he could eventually not be afraid of (or even like) people in hats because in his expereince, those people tend to have treats and give them to him... 
 
I agree that you should not reinforce a fearful response by coddling a dog or petting and reassuring...  If my dog were afraid of thunder, I wouldn't get on the floor and pet and coddle my dog as he whimpered, but I would, for example, start working on some obedience or try to play a fun game to distract him and praise and treat for everything he did during the storm that was not a fear behavior - even if at first he wasn't completely comfortable, I would try to reinforce the steps in the right direction.  The hope would be that my dog might eventually equate thunder storms with fun parties at my house with a lot of treats! 
 
I think that in this case, if the dog was growling or barking or pulling - coddling that behavior or "soothing" by saying gooood dog, it's okaaaay... would serve to reinforce...  but, here, trying to create a situation where the dog is set up to succeed (having children approach slowly, dropping a treat, handing a treat etc.) basically setting the dog up so he or she is more likely to approach confidently (succeed) and then praising and treating for that is a good thing... Just MHO...

I know the feeling.  My guy was about 3 months old when he was surrounded by 5 3-5year old s.  This was not a happy event by any means.  Since then we've gone experience by experience to teach Xerxes that children are people too and are not prey animals or dangerous.  If it's a one-on-one situation, I will allow interaction as long as there is a parent supervising.  No parent, no contact.  Also my other rule is that the kids have to be calm.  Xerxes's signal that he's had enough is to go behind me.  That's when the visit is over.  He's gotten alot better, and at least he doesn't bark and try to chase every child anymore.

Xerxes, you are one of the most unusual (in a good way) and beautiful dogs I have ever seen! I'll bet you attract a lot of people wanting to pet you b/c you are different. On eon one is so much better than a cluster of kids. Sunny does much better with one child than 2 or 3. The kid also has to be calm. One of our worst experiences was when a kid on a skateboard/scooter thing whizzed right by us when I first had her and she was very timid. She did ok the first time but then the kid decided to turn around and come back by so I snapped at him (I feel a little bad about this) to not come so close to my dog. It was just my reaction. I guess bettter to be rude then to have had her snap at him. I had not had her long enough to know what her reaction would be and I still consider her to be unpredictable around strangers due to her inherent tendency to shyness.