Now I have an aggressive dog . . .

    • Gold Top Dog

    Now I have an aggressive dog . . .

    I have been too upset to write anything here, but here goes. As much as I have gone on and on about how afraid of "aggressive" dogs I am (whatever "aggressive" means) my phobic dog bit a child on the face. No warning (that is, no growl) and no stitches (thank heavens) but a puncture to her lip. I adopted him 8 months ago, and he had been abused, etc., but his former family, and I've been extremely vigilant about watching him, especially around kids. He's never growled at anybody, prefers to get away and/or turn his head.
     
    But he does not like having his head and face played with and the hard part is that he's not a puppy--he's 3 years old. Still, I'm working through training, through treats, and through socialization practices to build up his confidence and his ability to have more "appropriate" responses to life's situations.
     
    Over 2 weeks ago my sister brought her kids over--and they don't live here so he hasn't seen them and I had him on leash. All was fine. He finally laid down, after going up to everyone and seeing them. The two kids, age 3 and 5, asked me if I could put in a cartoon and my sister agreed so I STUPIDLY stood up to put the movie and did not take my dog with me.
     
    Ten seconds later, my sister screams out "He bit her!" And she is grabbing up her daughter, taking her to the bathroom, with me right behind.
     
    Yes, he bit her. He scratched her nose and bit the skin between her nose and lips and he also bit her lips. It has become a Big Deal in my family, of course, and a Big Deal for me, too. I worry incessantly that he's "aggressive" but have been assured, by our trainer and by my vet, that he is not. So, is he "fear aggressive?"
     
    My niece is recovering well, but I guess that when I stupidly stood up and left them (assuming that the kids were coming with me since that's been the usual kid behavior in my experience), my nephew followed me and my niece went right up to my dog and put her face right into his. She has been able to do that her whole life with their family dog and has had no issues.
     
    Well, she had issues at my house. My sister wants to visit again someday, but the stipulation is that my dog be muzzled or crated (which isn't such a bad idea, and which I've done before, given some of the unruly kids I get around here periodically).
     
    I'm working as fast as I can with him, but maybe he's never going to be "trustworthy" around kids.
     
    Thoughts?
     
    What is "fear aggression" anyway?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, maybe you don't want my opinion on this but . . .
     
    I can't understand why your sister allowed her daughter to stick her face in the dogs face.  Was she unaware of the issues the dog has as far as being fearful?  And, even if he wasn't phobic or aggressive, it's just not a bright thing to do. 
     
    As far as company, my strong feelings on this are put the dog in another room.  There isn't any amount of training that is going to make me feel 100% confident Willow will always be OK with whoever is over, so I just don't let company around her. 
     
    Honestly, I don't understand why people are so into having the dog around the company.  Who is the company coming to see?  They might say "hi" to her or see her for a minute, but then she goes in the other room. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    And what was Mom doing while daughter was sticking her face into the dogs face?

    I think that willow is right on the money here.  Maybe the dog can come say hello but afterwards the dog needs to be gated or otherwise kept away from the company.  Especially if the company is children. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    People can be so ignorant! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    The dog would be safer from the children in a crate or behind a gate because then they can't poke at him and get in his face.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks. He can be a freak, for sure. Generally, though, I figured he was more socially inept than aggressive. I've been obsessing, wondering if he "attacked" her unprovoked, or snapped at her to "swat" her away. I hope it's the latter, of course.
     
    I don't have a problem putting him away when company's over; he has a few issues being alone in my bedroom, and I've been working with him on those, too. He's lived in a barn for 2 years, alone with animals, liking the woman he lived with, but tormented by the guys and kids. So--he's kind of a goof. I've been giving him cool things, like raw bones, when he's alone in the room.
     
    Generally, though, since I have another dog, the dogs and kids/people all say hello and then they go about their separate ways. Kids do what they want and dogs go lie someplace and sleep and all has been fine. I've told everyone that he concerns me and I've put him away intermittedly, too. I've always been so careful, except this time.
     
    And that's a lesson to me. I worry about feeding his phobia, though. That shouldn't be my number one concern, though, and I realize that. I just don't want to contribute to his phobia by making kid company a Big Deal for him--one that calls for him to be immediately swept up and placed in another room. At the same time, obviously, he can never have a shot at biting somebody again. So far, things have been fine for my niece as far as healing goes, but still--this is my fault and dogs can do irreversible damage.
     
    Am I being a goof about the phobia thing and my private dreams for a more evenly socialized dog?
    • Gold Top Dog
    You are NOT a goof and as far as the phobia issue I would just make sure he has something special when he is separated to distract him and make him think it is a good thing.  That way he will not associate the kids with being separated from you.
    Even something as simple as gating him in another room so he can see but not interact with the kids and giving him a good chew treat to work on.
     
    Fear aggression is simply taking the fight approach to situations that make you uncomfortable instead of flight.  Everyone has a fight or flight response - even animals that usually will chose flight will fight when cornered.  You dog may have thought he had no room to run so chose to strike first when threatened. 
     
    A dog who was unsocialized with kids will take a lot of work and effort to achieve a decent comfort level with them.  Continue working with yoru trainer to increase his confidence level.  He may never be a 'safe' dog with kids but no dog is - every dog can have a bad day.  IMHO if your dog had really wanted to bite her he would have - he reacted to what he perceived as a threat and unfortunately his reaction was a snap and not a growl.  Chalk it up to a learning experience and be grateful it wasn't worse.  Hopefully your sister will use this as a lesson for your niece as to why you do not stick your face in front of any dog. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    You dog is not aggressive but you now know that he can bite someone so be extra cautious especally with children.  Obviously that could have been a very bad situation.  I would also crate him when children are around for his pertection and theirs.
     
    Keep socializing and working him and keeping away from children unsupervised by you.  Many people feel that by putting their dogs in another room or in the crate when company come over is cruel or mean to the dog, that's crap.  The dog is happy you not subjecting him to those crazy little people.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree with Willow, your niece should not have gotten in the face of your dog.  My dal was fear aggressive and bit a child.  Similar incident to yours, an unkown kid ran up and hugged Reese around the neck[8|]. Needless to say he got bit.  This was the first time he and ever bit anyone, so after this incedent I was much more careful.  While he did get much better through training, (we did agility, and he soon realized that most people had treats in thier pockets!) I never left him alone with kids or would tell anyone that wanted to pet him that there were strict rules, i.e. not getting in his face, no grabbing, hugging, etc.  Just basic petting was allowed.  Never had another incident.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I know that Tasha is wary of kids so I always watch her like you do your boy.  I don't think, from your description, that your dog did anything wrong.  If someone came up to you really fast that was big and threatening with their hand going for you face and you were cornered, you might slap their hand away or even maybe hit them first.  But really you had a bee on your ear.    Your dog probably didn't have a chance to growl or warn away before the "threat" got to him.  Your niece's mother should have taught them, ESPECIALLY since they have a dog, that not ALL dogs like to be hugged and have you in their face.


    • Gold Top Dog
    Nancy--I don't think he was unprovoked at all.  The way I took it she got right in his face.  Now, regardless of whether she was just having fun with him it still wasn't the thing to do.  If he was a better socialized dog he probably would of been more tolerant of her.  But, you've got to work with what you've got. 
     
    Which leads me to keeping him separated.  It doesn't have to be a big deal.  I usually set Willow up with all her stuff and get her a situated before the company even gets there.  That way, no big deal. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Dogs don't come in two flavors, the non-aggressive and the aggressive. A dog can ACT aggressively. Any dog can and will bite under certain circumstances. Well, you now know your dog doesn't like kids to stick their face in his face. You might want to suggest to your sister that she teaches her children more appropriate around-dogs behavior. And there is nothing wrong with confining your dog when kids come to visit. Your dog will probably be happier away from them anyway.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I usually put both of my dogs away when company comes over.  Neither have ever bitten anyone but Sassy has concerned me enough that I don't take chances.  I think she'd be very reliable IF people or kids had as Mudpuppy put it "appropriate around-dogs behavior".  Unfortunately, many people are just clueless.  A very good friend was over recently and Sassy was simply sniffing her backside [:@] as we were talking.  My friend started acting nutty and squealing llike a little girl and Sassy got more and more excited, until I finally had to put her away.  I wasn't afraid she'd bite or anything but when a 75 lb dog gets playful, it can be scary to a non-dog person [:D].
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks everyone. My sister has a chow, believe it or not. She looks like Willow! [:)]

    Anyway, I will work on letting everyone say hello and then do separation. I have a couple of nephews who listen and can help me continue to socialize him. But sheesh, I don't even put my face near his and I'm his "mom."

    We've never had such an issue growing up. Wait, I take it back. We did. We had a Dobie who would growl at us (kids) when we asked her to get off the couch so we could sit. That was freaky. And she nearly bit me one day for putting her in the bathtub, which she hated.

    There was talk of putting him to sleep (not me, of course) and it's really become a bit of an issue between all of us. I'm the only who's single without children, and I guess I'm a typical American in some ways--my dogs are my "kids" even though I know they're really dogs.

    I really didn't think he was "aggressive" but I wanted additional feedback. Yep, I was dumb alright, but I am relieved that nobody thinks he was going for a fatal attack that day. He generally looks for an escape route (usually hides behind his sister, who I've had since she was a puppy), rather than comes straight on at anyone.

    I'm a novice owner in lots of ways, and an okay one way in lots of other ways. My thinking gets skewed sometimes, especially in crappy situations like this one. I just needed additional feedback. I get all emotional and I over think it all and then I'm running with it and before too long, I own a killer whale. Know what I mean? I totally OCD every little thing and I hate that about myself, but I also know that sometimes my thoughts and interpretations don't always mesh up with everyone else's.

    I have no problem separating him--but I'll work to plan it out so that I don't make it all a Big Deal. I used do to that with my hound (who was attacked by a Golden--I know!--and then by my sister's Chow) who grew increasingly dog aggressive as she aged. I'd hurry and panic when I saw other dogs and I managed to really feed into her phobia/habit repeatedly, and I don't want to do that here.

    Kids can easily give him treats and he easily takes them, too, like any other normal dog--and I do have rules for this, too, that they have to follow--and he's never even seemed like he's scared or on the verge of biting. He seems like a curious dog. 
     
    He does have a large personal space/bubble that needs to be respected.

    I'll do my best to balance socialization with keeping everyone safe. That's number one--keeping everyone safe.

    And now I'm just rambling/blogging ad nauseum . . .
    • Gold Top Dog
    Anyway, I will work on letting everyone say hello and then do separation


    I find it a lot easier to have Willow already separated when guests arrive and then bring her out later after all the commotion of everyone just getting there and all is over.  This way when she comes out everyone is ready and sitting and it's just much more controlled that way.  Then after she gets her chance to say "hello" and see what's going on, she goes back to her area so we can finish our time with our company.  Just my [sm=2cents.gif]