Dog Community

HATES puppies (kind of long)

Posted : 7/12/2006 4:20:13 PM

Since around 9 mo old Russell has decided he HATES puppies (he's now 15mo). Very young and very docile puppies he's okay with, but rambunctious puppies and pretty much anyone 6-10mo or so is his sworn enemy. On a good day such a pup would have to initiate play for him to react, but sometimes all it takes is for him to catch the puppy playing with any dog, or running around. Russell chases them, nips, barks, and if he can corner them he makes a big scary show of loud barking and nipping and bared teeth.

I watch him carefully and to my very trained eye it's clear that he is not really biting, many times he is barely touching the dog with his teeth, but it looks and sounds VERY vicious and scary. And of course, these are puppies, sometimes smaller than him. It's worth noting that some puppies he used to hate and try to 'fight,' but now have grown up a little, he's friends with and even submissive to usually. If it were my puppy he were fighting with, I would let them work it out, but these are off leash dog park situations and that kind of thing does NOT fly. It's really really embarrassing and already Russell's earned a rep at the park which totally makes me cringe.

Right now I manage this bad behavior by being super vigilant, spotting puppies as soon as they enter the park, leashing Russell and keeping him in a down stay until they leave, or just leaving ourselves. He can relax in a down stay and doesn't seem stressed, but if I let him off he would typically make a beeline for the puppy and try to kick its butt. I hate this, it's embarrassing, it's stressful for me, and it makes our trips to the dog park really not fun - as a result I barely go, but since we can't use our yard it's his only time to run around outdoors. And since I don't know anyone with a dog, it's our only chance to socialize him w other dogs.

My question is, is this something I can reasonably expect him to grow out of? Is it a question of him "disciplining puppies" (9 mo seems a little early to start that)? Is it a social status thing with puppies he perceives as rivals but still within butt-kicking range? I read today that Dr. Dodman considers this predatory behavior, which I thought was a little weird. Thoughts?

Diane Gilby

Posted : 7/13/2006 10:10:43 AM

Good morning - IMHO do not take him to dog parks until you have this behavior under control. If my puppy were harrassed by your dog I would be extremely upset with you. My Sheltie never liked puppies and although she is extremely well trained (I am an instructor) I don't trust her with puppies - they just plain annoy her. I did teach her to ignore other dogs (she was shown in agility and obedience) so her dislike is under control. But, bottom line - I would not leave her alone with a puppy.

Take your pooch to a good obedience school and work on him to ignore other dogs and/or puppies. He doesn't have to like them ,but he does have to leave them alone.

Dianeg

Xerxes

Posted : 7/13/2006 1:26:39 PM

Jones:

Does he ever "let up" on the puppies? Or is he just being tryannical?

I ask this because Xerxes has this thing where he will chase a puppy and let the puppy know that he's a dominant force. He'll usually give them one or two good nips and then they'll leave him alone, which is what he wants.

jones

Posted : 7/13/2006 4:11:01 PM

Xerxes, I'm not really sure how far he would take it or when he would give up given the chance. Our dog park is very rigid with its unspoken rules. People don't even let their dogs bark there, or growl even in play. So there is NO nipping and no "sorting it out" going on there.

I feel I have enough knowledge & tools to manage the behavior but that just doesn't feel good enough... I wish I could know why this was happening and whether it's something that he may grow out of or could be 'cured' of.

Oh and I want to add, the irony of this situation is that we have been bringing Russell to this same park since he was a young puppy and back when he was the little wild thing getting disciplined by the older dogs we were totally laid back about it and figured this was the best way for him to learn manners, esp since he's our only dog. He was never attacked but he was chased, barked at, and nipped plenty of times. I think it was good for him because he does well with adult dogs and displays all the right submissive signs, calming signals, etc. But now that the shoe's on the other foot he's got a reputation for being mean to puppies. [:@]

Chris

Posted : 7/13/2006 4:58:03 PM

This is another of those cases where we expect more from our dog than we do from ourselves, which is really unfair.

We'd like it if our dog played nicely with everything and everyone, and developed a 'template' personality based on breed or size or whatever. The truth is, some dogs are mean, some are friendly, and some are aloof. All we can do is teach tolerance and respect (with respect to personality), and hope for the best. I believe that nurture is a significant force in shaping that personality but nature still has a spoon in the pot. There may be nothing to cure, except a bad attitude, and if there were a cure for that, I'm sure every parent of a teenager would be a shareholder in that pharma stock. [

]

My advice, teach a reliable recall, a solid down stay, and emphasize human-dog socialization. You say you have the tools and knowledge to manage the behaviour, so, use them. Your pup may never play with other dogs. Okay. Did you adopt/buy him so he would be friends with other dogs or to be your companion?

I don't believe in dog parks. I mean I believe in their existence (duh) but I think they are more harm than good, for people and dogs. Want to socialize him? Ride transit, go to a street market, walk in a parade. Your pup will learn very quickly how to tolerate his surroundings and its occupants. Unless you are forming a dog pack, who cares if your dog plays well with others? All you should care about is if he interacts safely with people, and reciprocates the companionship with which you provide him.

Eventually, your dog will realize that the world holds more for him than tyranny over puppies.

Good luck.

jones

Posted : 7/13/2006 6:00:18 PM

Chinook... you're right. I think I let the people at the dog park get to me. This is just really me projecting my own issues on my dog. I would feel so humiliated and rejected every time someone would scold my dog (they really did!) or we'd have to leave the dog park "in defeat." What sucks is giving up the only place we had to let him play outdoors since our landlady has banished him from the backyard (she's nuts). But we're moving possibly as early as the fall, and will definitely have a dog-friendly yard as a requirement for our new home then.

He's awesome with people, never so much as looked cross eyed at a human being, child or adult. I should just count my blessings I guess. [

]

mudpuppy

Posted : 7/14/2006 11:03:38 AM

I think it's important to let dogs learn how to interact with other dogs politely, and to have chances to play with other dogs. You have to think of the safety of these puppies before anything else, though. It's totally inappropriate for your dog to go around attacking puppies without being provoked. If he only chastised rude puppies, that's perfectly acceptable and good for the puppies, but it sounds like he just goes after them for no reason. You need to put a stop to it. If it means leaving the dog park the second a puppy shows up, so be it.

ewin0210

Posted : 7/14/2006 11:23:08 AM

Hey Jones, if he's good off leash you could try taking him to sheepsfold. I had a few issues with irritating dogs when Scout was a puppy. They kept trying to hump them to the point where Scout was trapped and couldn't move. If I saw particular dogs I didn't like I took him for a walk in the trails instead. I love that park because of this. Might be worth considering. I can't beleive your stupid landlady. How irritating!!! Hope you find the perfect new place soon!

jones

Posted : 7/14/2006 1:43:10 PM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
I think it's important to let dogs learn how to interact with other dogs politely, and to have chances to play with other dogs. You have to think of the safety of these puppies before anything else, though. It's totally inappropriate for your dog to go around attacking puppies without being provoked. If he only chastised rude puppies, that's perfectly acceptable and good for the puppies, but it sounds like he just goes after them for no reason. You need to put a stop to it. If it means leaving the dog park the second a puppy shows up, so be it.

I'm still just a little confused about why he does it so I'm not sure if it's "no reason" or not. It started out that he didn't like large breed puppies like Boxers and Labs getting in his face, which of course I thought was understandable. At first he didn't bother puppies until they bothered him, and if I called him off he could ignore them and play elsewhere. But the last few times we've encountered this problem, he would get excited just by the sight of another puppy being chased, and start bullying... and would then fixate on the pup until he or we left. I'm confused about whether this is two separate problems (rude puppies and misdirected prey drive) or just one that has progressed and worsened.

I also have not been consistent in how I handled it... sometimes I would immediately leave, but I wasn't sure if my dog would make the connection why we were leaving. So other times I would put him in a prolonged down-stay by me, very long if necessary, and if there was a strike two then we'd left immediately.

I don't think the puppies are in any danger - I've never seen him actually bite, it's just a big scary show, teeth and barking. But still, I avoid letting that happen as much as humanly possible.

Emily - I know, my landlady is so annoying... she even just completely fenced in the backyard but still won't let the dog in it, infuriatingly enough. She's paranoid about us leaving microscopic bits of poop in the "grass" (aka weeds and clover) even though she never sets foot on the lawn. [:@]

spiritdogs

Posted : 7/15/2006 10:03:43 AM

Our dog park is very rigid with its unspoken rules. People don't even let their dogs bark there, or growl even in play. So there is NO nipping and no "sorting it out" going on there.

This is yet another reason dog parks are dangerous - no one who really knows what is appropriate and what isn't is there to supervise, so everyone inhibits all behavior that appears inappropriate even if it is quite normal. Maybe nothing will come of that, but my guess is that there will at least be a few dogs that will eventually do something awful because they were never allowed to tell off a rude adolescent.
As the owner of a herding dog (often, they hate other dogs to get in their faces), I feel your pain. My dogs will air snap at puppies quite often (they don't connect), but owners are often horrified.
If your dog is warning puppies off, and they keep coming, his warnings may escalate. That often happens with Lab pups, or Boxers - other dogs often find their forward play style to be obnoxious. Wish I could see video.