Really Scared Dog Please share suggestions

    • Gold Top Dog

    Really Scared Dog Please share suggestions

    I copied this over from the old board:
     
    We have a huge problem with nails. Mattie used to love being brushed. She did not like having her nails trimmed but always let me do it without much of a problem. She has had a bad experience with a groomer. The groomer said she tried to bite her while having her nails done. I dont know what happened, but I believe the groomer hurt her and probably hit her. The groomer was extremely stressed out when I picked Mattie up. She was complaining that her helper did not show up and she had to do 11 dogs by herself. This was at pets*mart. Mattie had been there many times before without a problem.

    Now if I take Mattie to Pets*mart she freezes at the door and urinates on the floor. Yesterday she saw me trimming my other dogs nails. She freaked out urinated on the floor and refused to come to me the rest of the day. She usually sleeps on my bed, but would not even come in my room. She was obviously scared of me. And I was not even going to do her nails, I will never do them myself again, because she is so afraid. I hate that she is even afraid of me now because she saw me doing Casie' nails. Now when I call her to come to me, she hesitates.

    I have of course found another groomer and I am staying with her during groomings. She is scared to death still. And this happened several months ago. She does not fight, but shakes the whole time. And she urinates as soon as you touch her paws. I tried to start back at square one, by just touching her paws while she is relaxed. But I am having no luck at all, she is just getting very scared of me too. She will let me brush her again, but she is scared the whole time.

    My vet suggested that I stop messing with her paws at all. And that they would give her a tranquilizer and do her nails there. Has anyone ever had a dog who has this problem? I wondered if anyone has any suggestions how to help her overcome this problem without being drugged. I can't have her scared to come to me because she is always afraid of what I might do.

    I complained at Pets*mart of course. And explained what happened. They say she has worked there for years and has quite a following. I have no idea what happened, but I will always believe this lady did something really bad to scare her this badly.

    Any suggestions or ideas how to help get her past this? Like I said it happened months ago and we are having no luck at all.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow. My dog is timid with strangers, but we have not had this issue before. Maybe try this--start your relationship over again, and work to rebuild the trust. Try going back and doing obedience classes--NOT at petsmart--and maybe agility to buck up her confidence. Try doing NILIF at home--it has helped with my dog. It may be that she never lets you trim her nails without sedation again, but I think the fact that your relationship is suffering needs to be addressed first.
    • Bronze
    OMG, poor Mattie...there'd be no doubt in my mind that the groomer did something to traumatize her.  But, the important thing now, like Sally said, is to get her to trust you again.  And to help her get through this so that she isn't permanently scarred.  My dog is very sensitive and I have to give her a lot of praise and a lot of affection to boost her confidence.  We've been able to work through most of her fears, but it's a daily challenge sometimes.  You're doing the right thing by staying with her while someone else grooms her; I would do the same thing.  As far as getting Mattie back to her old self again, it may be a long, slow process, but just keep at it.  Good luck & let us know how it's going.  [:)]   
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree with everyone here. You have got to get her trust over to you again. You can do the NILIF along with clicker training or just a whole lot of positive reinforcement along with what you are doing now.
     
    It only takes them once to have a bad experience and they never forget it ever.
    I hope you are able to regain her confidence again soon.
    • Gold Top Dog
    As a groomer, I have to say there are the good ones out there, and then there are the bad ones. Not all groomers are bad, though. But it takes one bad experience to make them scarred for life. Perhaps they quicked her, and that does hurt.
     
    This is what I tell people at work:
     
    This is going to sound weird, but does she like food at all? What I tell my customers to do is to smear some low-fat ;peanut butter or spray cheese on the side of a vertical surface. Do this for about a week (I wouldn't do it every single day to avoid tummy problems, but certainly a couple times a week is good)  not illuding to the fact that you have any intention of clipping her nails at all. If that works for about a week, start to pet her just on her back while she's licking it up. Then, if she still seems okay, then before you put the spray cheese on, put the nail clippers out on the table or raised surface. Then you can put the clippers on the floor.  If at any time she relapses, go back to step 1.
     
    That is if she works very well for food, because the brain can only be focused on one thing at a time (at least most dogs) so if she's concentrating on food, then she won't be so terrified of the nail clippers. That works about 60% of the time, the other 40% truly are absolutely terrified and we just don't try to do their nails.
     
    That's just my [sm=2cents.gif].
    • Gold Top Dog
    Here's what I would do.  Start taking her by the vet's office daily, or as many times as you possibly can.  Every time you go in with her, just get the receptionist or a tech to toss her a cookie. Then leave.  Think of it as creating 50 good experiences for every bad one.  After a few weeks, you can drop her off, have her sedated and get the nails clipped.
    I would also mention to the grooming mgr and the store mgr at the Petsmart that you had a problem.  Some dogs really freak when they get "quicked" (some dogs are one trial learners, and that's all it takes to make them nuts), but the manager should be made aware just so he/she can monitor that groomer regarding technique (and temper, if that really is a problem).
    At home you can try doing this.  Smear some really good stuff, like lamb baby food, peanut butter, or squeeze cheese on the front of your fridge.  Sit on the floor with her and let her lap it off.  After a few days, begin to stroke her body as  she laps, then gradually start stroking her legs.  Go very slowly, and don't start touching harder or picking up paws until she is nonchalant about the stroking.  Gradually, she will learn to trust you. 


    • Bronze
    Laura,
     
    I'm glad a professional groomer replied here.  It's nice to have your perspective on issues like this.  My dog will do anything for a tasty treat, but she will not let me go near her nails, no matter how yummy the treats are.  So, what do you do with that 40% that are absolutely terrified? 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for all the great suggestions. I am definetly going to try the cheese on the fridge trick. She is very food motivated so hopefully that will work to at least get her to let me near her.
     
    From now on when I trim Caseys nails I will make sure I am in a room with the door closed so Mattie does not see it. Mattie is still hesitant to come to me today after seeing me do Casie's nails yesterday. I did take both the girls to the park today for along walk, and that seemed to relax Mattie quite a bit.
     
    Hopefully she will at least be comfortable enough to come back in my room tonight. I HATE that she is so scared of me. It is really just so heartbreaking! She used to be so excited to see me, and always snuggled in bed at night. I hope to be able to get her over this soon.I cannot believe she is this upset just seeing me doing the other dogs nails yesterday.
     
    Thanks again for all the suggestions, I will try them all. And I did enroll her into another class. It's clicker training, I hope that will boost her confidence like puppy kindergarten did!
    • Gold Top Dog
    You've got a lot of good suggestions here -- but let me try to boil it down for you.  Yes, I have a scaredy dog. 
     
    When you are working with a scaredy dog you have to consider several things.
     
    1.  Often they will generalize all over the place -- meaning, suddenly EVERYTHING makes them scared, upset, blah blah blah.    In essence what happens is the dog version of "If I can't win, I don't want to play!!"
     
    2.  So this is why the suggestion of offering the food and gradually adding your touch.  Add your voice too -- just talk ... but make your voice soothing, crooning and generally talking about all 'good' things. 
     
    3.  The magic happens tho in **tiny steps**.  The suggestion of waiting a couple of days before even laying equipment near is a good one and is a good example of 'steps'.  And if you don't get success with a step, back up and re-evaluate it.  Where did the fear show... when you went to the cupboard?  When you stepped near by? 
     
    So yeah, you may have to avoid all equipment until you can lay hands on your own dog!! 
     
    Do other family members have the same problem?  Rack your brain for commonalities -- do you wear a particular cologne?  Your voice?  Words? 
     
    When we got Billy he was like 5 years old and had been BADLY Abused in foster care just before we got him.  But as we began obedience, it was obvious he had some super bad memories to overcome.  One of which involved "laying down".  When we would try to give him a command (ANY words we tried to paid with 'laying down') he would freeze.  Short of breaking his legs you could NOT get that dog to lie down. 
     
    He would shake and shiver, He would literally shut down. 
     
    So, we began our training sessions at home!  ANY time we would see him 'lying down' just on his own volition BOTH David and I would say in a really low key, positive/warm voice BUT **to each other NOT to the dog** "Hey, honey ... look at Billy's nice LIE DOWN! Isn't that great?"
     
    WE didn't talk TO Billy.  We didn't address him by name for DAYS regarding this behavior.  We just commented positively and warmly to each other as if we were just sharing normal conversation.
     
    NEXT tiny step -- we began to say to HIM "Nice 'lie down' Billy" (ANY time we saw him simply lying down anywhere in the house but trying really hard to 'watch' for him to be 'laying down' when we said it."
     
    Gradually the praise got warmer, more personal, more EXCITED on our part so it became true 'praise' just because the dog was in the process of LAYING down!!
     
    The next tiny step was to combine food with putting our hand in front of him in the 'down' motion literally planning to catch the dog AS HE LAID DOWN so while he was actually doing it of his own volition, we combined it with a 'command' and rewarded him for doing something HE was wanting to do anyway!
     
    This created the breakthru -- wow -- you mean you guys WANT me to do this?  You are gonna give me FOOD to do this??  And ... it's not gonna hurt me??
     
    In short order we suddenly had a dog who would 'lie down' any old time at all with NO stress.  But the 'build up' to the desensitization took WEEKS.  But dang, it worked!
     
    I suspect you will need to do something similar to this.  And the first 'touches' will have to simply be very low key and positive and work 'lower'.
     
    Now when it came to touching his feet, he was also super sensitive. He's also a mega allergy dog, and we wanted to be able to soak his feet in black tea once a day for the allergies.
     
    My husband did this one -- he sat a dish of 'sun tea' on the porch before he walked Billy in the morning.  He also made sure a folded turkish towel was there.  He would end the walk at the door, and day 1 saw him pick up Billy's foot at the knee and just plop it in the tea, then plop it on the towel and SHOVE IN STRING CHEESE in the mouth and praise. 
     
    Soon, day by day, he was able to do all 4 feet, swish the paws around in the tea for a while and THEN dry, then hold the towel in his hand so he could cradle Billy's paw IN his hand while 'drying' it, and eventually full fledged touching of his paws.
     
    All of this ended in string cheese. 
     
    Billy will do ANYTHING for string cheese. 
     
    The ultimate outcome.  "DAD are we done with the walk yet?  The foot soak game is OVER THERE ... over .. yeah, that place .. yep ... COME ON .... yep ... come on HURRY UP THE STEPS ... the stuff is HERE!!!"
     
    Yep ... let's end the walk EARLY so we can soak my feets!!!
     
    You will win -- just keep the steps tiny tiny and the praise huge and heartfelt.  If a step doesn't work, back up and do it a different way and do it in smaller steps.
     
    Then, in honesty -- enter this dog in obedience training of a GOOD quality (NO Pet Smart obedience training -- get into a good class where they take time and no harshness).  But give this dog chances to 'win' -- chances to earn effusive praise and it will build confidence. 
     
    Scaredy dogs are tough to train but soooooo worth it!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    We have the same problem with our aging Husky, not her nails but grooming period. She has developed a fear of being touched around her tail and her feet. We think it's from a groomer in the past. For the last three or four years, when we have her teeth cleaned, we also have her groomed at the same time. Anesthesia has been the only way. However, we have been working with her, showing her the clippers, petting her and being calm, and are gradually getting her trimmed ourselves.  I think the others posting here gave you good advice after taking it slowly, undoing whatever was done, getting the dog to associate nail trims with a positive experience. Whatever you do, don't force it on her.
    • Gold Top Dog
    We did make a little step forward. Mattie slept in my bed last night. She is still scared to come to me, but after I went to sleep she came in to the foot of the bed. A little progress!! I have been dropping her treats throughout the day, she will not take them from my hand yet, but at least she is coming closer to me.
     
    Thanks for all the suggestions! Poor Mattie, it looks like this is going to take a lot of time.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Theresamat -- you might want to try getting some valerian root tincture -- in particular I have the best luck with HerbPharm non-alcoholic (it is not at all bad tasting and 3 out of 3 of mine think it is a treat!! quite sweet).
     
    It's a relaxant, and not habit-forming.  And it might just chill things out so being near you is more 'relaxing' than scarey.
     
    You can try just putting a couple of drops in her dish.  Then if that's yummy, see if she'll just lick it from the dropper (so you don't have to handle her at all). 
     
    But it could make the process easier because it could make things going from your HAND to her mouth a 'relaxing' thing plus a positive one. 
     
    You can also mix a wee bit of valerian tincture (like half a dropper ful) with half a teas. of tahini or peanut butter.  That might work as well.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Callie,
    Do you buy that at like a GNC or Wallmart. I dont really know where to find something like that, and I would love to try it.
    Theresa
    • Gold Top Dog
    Some pharmacies and health food stores may have it, or online.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wal-mart has only the herbal caps (and GNC does too), But I doubt they have tincture.  A real 'health store' (like a chain like Whole Foods, or a mom & pop type of health store) -- tincture is the liquid form and it's always a small 1 oz bottle -- you can get it all over online, and any tincture will work (the HerbPharm is just the best tasting).
     
    The one with alcohol isn't a problem -- it's just a little more bitey on the tongue.  The liquid works way faster -- like within 5 minutes usually.  The dried herbs in caps are fine -- but they have to go thru the whole stomach digestive process (like 45 minutes - 1 hr) to work, which kinda takes the control away from you.
     
    Herb Pharm is probably the best quality of any, but it's usually not difficult to find.  You might want to make a few phone calls before you run your legs off.   Usually it's going to be the same type of store where you'd find suipplements, etc.  GNC just typically doesn't carry tinctures in my experience.