dog whisperer and collar

So you don't train independently but with training centers? When you say "for a living" do you mean that you support yourself  as a proffesional trainer?

No, I didn't say I don't train independently, only that I don't have a website.  I have three jobs, and a rental property, if it's any of your concern how I make my living.  Two of the jobs are in training exclusively.  One is with a non-profit, at which I direct a program for elders and their pets. 
Oops - if you count my private clients, I guess make that four jobs.  One of the centers I work at is considered the best in the area, and recommended by local vets and other pet pros.  We have well over 200 dogs a week taking classes.  On weekends, we run play groups for our clients - I supervise the heavy duty group on Sunday afternoons.  Dogs that engage in lots of physical play.
Does that answer all your questions, and anyway, what's your point?  

My point is that you stated you train proffesionally as if that proves your point. I am questioning that assertion because you may run some programs but that doesn't mean you have worked with problem dogs with a lot of aggresive issues. I have a couple of Pit mixes that I rescued and one has dominance aggression towards other dogs and the other has fear aggression issues and click and treat isn't going to solve those problems. While clicking is useful for teaching tricks I don't think it is helpful for people reading an Internet forum to be led to believe it is a cureall for behavioral problems that most likely need a behavioral professional and not some clicker training.

Unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about.  Saying that clicker training is just for tricks is like saying people eat just so they can burp.  No logic.
The principles of operant conditioning can be applied to any behavior, be it the extinction of aggressive behavior, or instilling obedience commands.  Marine mammal trainers and zoo trainers train animals with great capacity to harm, yet they don't have to physically manipulate or "correct" their gorillas or killer whales to get them to perform the desired behaviors. 
I guess I just have to chalk your comments up to ignorance, since you have no idea who I am or what my personal experience with dogs is.  You simply choose to assume I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you about Cesar Millan. 
People with limited knowledge of +R always throw out the "can't do that with clicks and treats" argument. You are completely ignorant of of the fact that treats aren't the only reward that positive trainers use to motivate a dog.  You are also ignorant of what operant conditioning, classical conditioning or counterconditioning techniques are, and can do (Do you even know what NRM's, +P, or the premack principle are, without looking them up?).  I'm quite sure I won't be able to convince you.   But, I don't just "run a program", and your disrespectful tone about my qualifications is a personal attack that will roll off my back like water off a duck.  I certainly don't need any validation from the likes of you.  Heck, if you're dissing me, though, you must at least have a Master's in Animal Behavior - what college was that from? 

Spiritdogs and Richard_Dragin.  Don't you think the more appropiate forum for your conversation is the email function of this site?  Calling someone an idiot or questioning someone's credentials in public?  Shame!  Don't you also realize by your attacks and name calling that you inhibit other people from contributiing.  I am glad we Hoosiers don't behave like this.

Apparently, if you contribute to a discussion here lately, and someone doesn't agree with you, you get your credentials questioned, then some someoe comes along and slaps your hand, too, for objecting to that kind of treatment.   Glad we New Englanders don't act that way. [:'(]

BTW, I didn't call anyone an idiot.  And, it was my credentials that got dissed.  I responded, but I didn't initiate this degeneration in the discussion.  Maybe this is just another one of those threads that needs to close.

Ouch!  I just want the conversation to stop.  I am drawn to read all your responses because they are so helpful and with great insight (except the book references).  From the first message I read it was a given you have behaviorist credentials and experience.  I think you were sucker punched.  I was going to say "I am glad we Hoosiers don't behave like this, we just shoot each other" because of the recent sniper shooting on a road I often travel.  I don't slaps hands, the worst I do is shake my finger at the dogs.

OK Folks, get back on topic..

Ann,
I know the differance between Classical and Operant from Psych 101, I know that treats are not the only possible reward. I have heard the marine mammal argument before but from my experiance swimming with dolphins I learned a thing or two. Seems they can teach the dolphin tricks but can't keep it from occasionally dragging someone to the bottom of the tank and sitting on them for paying too much attention to a subordinate dolphin.

The main logic I am concerned with is that in all the time I have seen people suggest clickers for aggressive behavior I have yet to see someone talk about a specific case when it helped their dog. The reason I asked about a website is I was hoping to read a testimonial from a client stateing that your training solved their aggression problem.

DPU,
She never called me an idiot and we are all grown ups so having a disagreement of opinions is what part of what public forums are for. Please don't generalize about us or hold yourself up as a model of virtue because of your geographic location.

Ouch, this thread has gotten rather unpleasant.
 
Mudpuppy and Anne are both highly experienced folks with a lot of dog experience.  I can't believe that they are being slammed because they do NOT advocate the methods of CM.  For the record, either do I.  He uses old fashioned yank and spank methods and his "collar" is just a hidden choker.
 
FWIW, I have trained my german shepherds totally without the use of aversives, including a reactive female who decided she didn't like a drunk and took a large chunk out of his leg.  Now I can take her anywhere without worry, although I will never have 100% faith in her....I will always watch her just a bit more carefully than I do the others.
 
I have used a clicker, but don't use it often since I'm not coordinated enough to click at just the right time, but with the clicker, or with a marker word, I've trained a great deal more than "tricks"  Five of my six gsds have earned their CGC awards, and every lick of their training came by way of +R.
 
I can walk three dogs at once, in my little village, on the busy streets without a worry.  I would take more of them but the fact that two together outweigh me is a tiny bit intimidating, well trained or not.  And gosh, the worst I've ever used is a prong, positioned as mudpuppy suggested, and without the use of leash corrections, to remind a very headstrong boy of his leash manners.  I'm betting that either Anne or Mudpuppy can walk a whole lot more than 3 at a time.....
 
Now, I guess you'll have a go at me....enjoy yourself.  You've already violated the forum rules by your personal attacks on TWO of our respected members....you might as well go down swinging.....

Maybe I should start a seperate thread asking for first hand accounts of how R+ training solved an aggression problem so I don't continue to sidetrack this thread.

SECOND WARNING!!!!!!
 
Stay on topic EVERYONE or we will be speaking privately

**Content removed**
OFF TOPIC
 
Continued posts off topic will result in the same until this thread is closed

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I can't believe that they are being slammed because they do NOT advocate the methods of CM.  For the record, either do I.  He uses old fashioned yank and spank methods and his "collar" is just a hidden choker.

Now I can take her anywhere without worry, although I will never have 100% faith in her....I will always watch her just a bit more carefully than I do the others.

I can walk three dogs at once, in my little village, on the busy streets without a worry.  I would take more of them but the fact that two together outweigh me is a tiny bit intimidating, well trained or not. 

Its fine if they dont like CM, just dont talk trash about him or his methods, thats why this topics get so long, if you respect other people's feeling that CM method is right for them then we would not be here, now "spank" is a new accusation, i heard "yank" and "crank" but i will glad if you show me just one single episode were he "spanks" dogs

Back to the topic, the collar may help you to controld better your dogs, i have seen a 80 years old lady walking a 120 pounds German Shepard with that collar and she was able to handle him 100%

The collar does NOT affect in a negative way to the dog, a dog's neck IS NOT like a human neck, any kind of collar in a human neck will hurt, should we not use collars with dogs either? the neck of a dog is one of the strongest part, just like if i put a collar in your leg, i dont think that will hurt you at all but if i "pop" (not "yank") your leg with it i'm sure i will get your attention

Should i be concern about putting reins on a horse? that also looks painful, but it's just the looks

The illusion collar is just to have it in the "least strong" part of the neck, have anyone heard a dog crying because they  pulled too hard?

I had an Alaskan Malamute once in the past (before i knew i was able to control any dog) and a couple sheeps, one day i let the dog run free and he went right away to attack the sheeps, he grabbed one by the neck and started shaking his head, he was going to kill the sheep for sure, i had to grab him by the collar and pull him up since nothing was making him release the sheep, i just realized that i was having my hand above my shoulder with a dog in 2 legs and a sheep STILL in his mouth

My question is, do you think that if i was hurting or choking my dog he would be able still keep the sheep in his mouth??? the bad part is that since i was not having time to sit down and think whats the best way to make him release the sheep and since the sheep was going to die at any moment the only thing i could think of was to jab my dog in the ribs, i had to do it twice before he let the sheep free, even when i was strong enough to have the dog in 2 legs by the collar and a sheep hanging from him i am not strong enough to breake bones and even less if it was my left hand, so the dog was perfectly fine

Dont you think that when a dog pulls at the time you are walking him that applies WAY more pressure in his neck than one simple "quick and release" from the leash???????

Espence,
Yes, back to the topic.... I agree that a quick pop to get their attention is quite a bit differant than trying to choke them (which is not acceptable). I have been using a Martingale but it doesn't stay high enough up so I may have to look into Cesars' collar. Just the collar alone though is not enough, you have to time a negative sound to go along with it. It imitates a dogs natural way of learning similar to a growl and nip at the back of the neck. It's fast effective and over in an instant but only a small part of the type of behavior modification that one of my dogs needs.