My dog is wild!! Please Help!

    • Gold Top Dog

    My dog is wild!! Please Help!

    My dog Chico is an adorable German Shepard/Border Collie/Lab mix, and he can be very sweet, but when it comes to trusting us with things like touching his feet, or putting him in different positions, he can turn to his instint and bite and snarl at us!
     
    We tried a puppy training  program, and did see some good results, but the dog trainer had to be very fierce with him and pull on his scruff and growl back at him. And after that Chico was very scared of her.
     
    It seems as if whenever we try to put him in a position, for example submission, where he is lying on his side and we put one hand on the top of his head and the other on his belly, it seems as if he gets scared and doesn't trust us so he tries to protect himself.
     
    How can we get him so that he trusts us and is comfortable with us?
     
    Thanks,
    cutepetsrus
    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh, and he is a little over a year old. This has been a problem ever since we got him.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think its important that you actual FEEL in charge.  I saw Mic say in another post if you are "hoping" they will comply, they likely wont, you have to KNOW that you are in charge and they WILL do what you say.  They pick up on these things.  If you are going to do the alpha roll and put him on his side, you are supposed to tire him out first I think, like take a very long walk, then try these things and still make sure you are feeling very confident and in charge.  Some here, you may find, dont agree with those methods...
     
    Also you may try the Nothing In Life IS Free method, where you make him sit and wait or down or any command, but essentially WORK for anything and everything, even petting.  You can try hand feeding him and doing commands in between each bite. 
     
    You need to establish yourself as the boss with him, because he doesnt see you that way. 
     
    Good luck, welcome!
    • Gold Top Dog
    What your dog is doing is following his instinct to protect himself - being on his back is an extremely vulnerable position for a dog (exposing all his vital organs), and the feet and muzzle are very sensitive. Unfortunately I think your trainer took exactly the wrong approach, confirming his fear that he cannot trust humans not to overpower and hurt him.
     
    I don't know how old he was when you first got him, but typically if a puppy is handled a lot and makes positive association with being handled when he is 8-16 wks old, he won't have the kinds of problems you describe. What you have to do now is desensitize him and reprogram him to associate handling his body with positive things happening to him. Go slowly, a little at a time. Touch his paw briefly, then praise and treat him. Do that many times a day, working very gradually toward picking up his paw, holding it, gently squeezing, etc.... anytime he has a bad reaction go a step backwards and proceed more slowly. In the interim, you probably should muzzle him for any grooming and nail clipping that have to be done.
     
    As for positioning him or placing him on his back, I don't think this is a good idea in general. Some dogs are okay with that kind of handling, but if your isn't I see no reason to force it. Physically manipulating the dog to enforce submission is unsafe and doesn't work - it's a technique that was based on misreading wolf behavior. It's better to encourage your dog to submit to you by being a confident and trustworthy leader, doing obedience training, making him work for treats and meals and toys, etc. And anytime you need to move your dog's body there is usually a safe and hands-off way to do it, either through training a command, luring, or if needed using a leash.
     
    Good luck and welcome to dog.com! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    There are trust issues here.  The dog needs to learn to trust you, and to trust your judgement.  Force will not work.  You might get compliance but most likely you'll get a dog that is complying out of fear, not out of trust.  Build up the trust slowly.  If you want to touch his feet, for grooming purposes start out by just touching the feet.  And reward, praise reward when he lets you touch them.  Once you can touch his feet with no reaction, then it's time to add the clippers to the equation.  Again, just touch the clippers to the feet...no reaction gets praise.  Anything else gets ignored.  Then it's time to touch the clippers to the nail.  Just touching, no clipping.  Touch gets rewarded.  Then you can move to the clipping...one nail at a time. When you first start, just tip the nails.  Don't take a chance at all of clipping the cuticle.  That will take you right back to square one.
     
    Keep at it as this process will likely take several weeks.  Trust doesn't come easily in some dogs.  And force will get you nowhere, in a big big hurry.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks again! I will make sure to try some of your tips on him!
     
    We adopted Chico from the Humane Society when he was about three months old. He had recently been returned from another family that had adopted him from the same place; they said they returned him due to allergies, but we don't know anything about how he was rasied from the couple weeks he was with them.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Also one other thing...search for a trainer that uses positive reinforcement, not domination.  Positive reinforcement teaches a dog obedience but also a bit of confidence.  And it sounds like your boy needs a bit of confidence.
    • Puppy
    In my oppion your pup is acting simular to what my pup was doing at first but she was not biting just barking and growling.  They suggested me to do some at home training and the largest part of the training was to teach the pup who was master...  They started by having me put the collar on but on notch smaller to control better.  Then you put the leash on and with you foot step down on the leash 1 inch from the clip and tell the pup DOWN.  Then stay and keep them there for at least 15 min then step off and if they get up repeat until the pup relizes I can not get up unless told.  Then the next step they had me do keep the pup on a leash when entering or leaving the house or even walking around the house.  When you get to a door way or some part of the house where you and your dog can not walk side by side you turn and look down to the pup and say in firm voice " SIT AND STAY " then you walk through and say COME after you went through... It teaches them your the master and in time LOTS OF TIME, the behaivor will decrease or dissappear.  Mine now with out a lease LOVES to follow behind me.  You can even reward them for the good behavior and they will tend to want to do as asked or told to get the reward weather its just a pat on head or even a toy or snack.  Never allow them their treats or toys and dont give them what they want like a tummy rub unless they did a good thing for it.  I have had my pup 2 years now and she is now sooo much better, just takes lots of time and you have to want to work with him.  Mine was from the omish farm so every thing scared her and even cars made her go nuts and she HATED MEN, but we now do car rides where she jumps in and she plays with my hub and nothing else scares her no more.  So BE PATIENT!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Okay. Thanks for all of your help!
     
    • Silver
    I have to say not all dogs will let you touch the bottom of their feet no matter what you try. Mine always makes you hold his paw when you give him belly rubs but when it comes to touching the pads he will pull away, we have tried everything.
     
    Try using treats and teaching him to roll over this might help with putting him in different positions. Remember this would be the fourth home he has had so of coures it will take a little more for him to trust you. Keep training and don't give up.
    • Puppy
    suggested me to do some at home training and the largest part of the training was to teach the pup who was master... They started by having me put the collar on but on notch smaller to control better. Then you put the leash on and with you foot step down on the leash 1 inch from the clip and tell the pup DOWN. Then stay and keep them there for at least 15 min then step off and if they get up repeat until the pup relizes I can not get up unless told. Then the next step they had me do keep the pup on a leash when entering or leaving the house or even walking around the house. When you get to a door way or some part of the house where you and your dog can not walk side by side you turn and look down to the pup and say in firm voice " SIT AND STAY " then you walk through and say COME after you went through

     
    Don't ever take him to that trainer again, for starters.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Agreed Proxy. Gosh lets not ONLY cut off the pups airflow by putting the collar on too tightly, lets also THEN see if we can't break his neck.
     
    Why does anyone need to alpha roll a dog??  On their backs, tummy exposed is a very vulnerable position for a dog and when we FORCE that position, we get FEAR, and the result might not be pretty.
     
    When I foster a litter, their feet, as well as every part of their bodies are handled every single day.  Yet despite my best efforts with new owners, sometimes I'll get phone calls months later that "he won't let me cut his toenails"....well, if you haven't been handling the feet on a regular basis for other reasons, yep, he's probably afraid of  the pedicure.  After all, it can be uncomfortable or even painful.  Sometimes they get "quicked" and then it will take MONTHS of hard work for them to be comfortable with having their feet handled again.
     
    When Tyler came back from the "home" I'd placed him in, he didn't want his feet touched at all.  This was only 2 months that he was gone.  And his nails were soooo long they were curling around on themselves so they had to be done.  We did the old peanut butter on Mom's leg trick.....that way he could curl up with me, and his nails were very gently cut.  So we got through the first nail clipping without any trauma, and then started playing games with his feet every day.  He'd lay beside me, I'd tap his foot gently.....almost like one would do with a child....quick and easy tap until that didn't startle him.  Then I'd hold "hands" with him randomly.....never to cut his nails, but just to get him used to the idea that it was OK for me to touch his feet.  We started with mere seconds, and now, I could hold "hands" with him for hours if I wanted too.  It's a trust issue, and in his case, I think they probably tried to cut his nails and hurt him, so he was afraid.  Just go really slow and easy with touching his feet and in time he'll trust that anyplace you touch him is ok.
    • Gold Top Dog
    They started by having me put the collar on but on notch smaller to control better. Then you put the leash on and with you foot step down on the leash 1 inch from the clip and tell the pup DOWN. Then stay and keep them there for at least 15 min then step off and if they get up repeat until.....

     
    You forgot the learning phase of the training process.  The most important phase of all.  It is unfair to jump straight to proofing without taking the necessary steps that allow you to be evenhanded with your dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    this dog has trust issues. The absolutely last thing you want to be doing is physically forcing him to do anything. HE WILL GET WORSE. He will start biting harder and faster and under different circumstances-- after all, if you're constantly attacking him, it's his right to defend himself. Get yourself a handful of treats. Touch his shoulder. Praise and treat. Touch him lower down on the leg. Praise and treat. Go slowly. Every session push against his comfort zone, but not so far he feels the need to defend himself.
    Teach him to lie down on command, again using treats and praise. Teach him to roll over, again using praise treats and belly rubs. Why do you feel the need to PUT him in a submissive position? dogs who are truly submitting put themselves into a submissive position. The dominant dogs NEVER physically force the submissive dogs into any position.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you, mudpuppy!